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> In Defense of the FAQ, Some FAQ is better than no FAQ
Dizzo Dizzman
post Mar 3 2005, 10:28 PM
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Considering the verbal abuse the FAQ has gotten on this site, I thought I would speak up. While I may not agree with some of the FAQ postings, I do appreciate that they take the time and effort to answer their fan's questions.

It is very handy to have a one stop place to at least get an opinion on a rules question. Since it is a game, I'm under no obligation to use the FAQ, but it does help clarify things. At the very least, it gives me an opportunity to blow off work for a few minutes and read the ranting and raving of dumpshock rules lawyers.

So if you like the FAQ, give a shout out to the writers, and maybe they'll keep updating it.

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torzzzzz
post Mar 3 2005, 10:33 PM
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Dizzo, I must confess that I Have not looked at the FAQ. I seem to get what I need to know from the people on here, so I can't really say if they are good or bad.
But I will have a look!

torz
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Sokei
post Mar 3 2005, 10:35 PM
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I did post something similar to this in the Faq attack thread. basically despite my disagreement with some things, which is always going to happen. I do appreciate their effort and time spent working on this.
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Kenshi
post Mar 3 2005, 10:30 PM
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I don't know why anyone complains about the FAQ. If you don't like it, don't use it. We are lucky to even have a FAQ. The powers-that-be are taking time to answer our questions. We shouldn't be complaining about it. We should be thanking them.
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RunnerPaul
post Mar 3 2005, 10:44 PM
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At least the SR FAQ doesn't self-contridict. The latest release of the D&D 3.5 core rule FAQ, has two different and conflicting answers on the topic of tumbling in combat. Of course, given the D&D FAQ's increasingly monolithic size, I imagine that the thing is just becoming unmanagable for WotC.
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mfb
post Mar 3 2005, 10:53 PM
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yes, why should anyone complain when the rules (or, well, quasi-rules) don't make sense? i think it's possible to appreciate the effort put into the FAQ, without necessarily being pleased with what the FAQ rules. i think this because i do it myself.
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BitBasher
post Mar 3 2005, 10:53 PM
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I'll agree with this, I do appreciate the efforts of the developers and the fact that we get a response to our issues...

...Even if I think the response is sometimes crack addled ;)
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Mar 3 2005, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman @ Mar 3 2005, 03:28 PM)
Considering the verbal abuse the FAQ has gotten on this site, I thought I would speak up. While I may not agree with some of the FAQ postings, I do appreciate that they take the time and effort to answer their fan's questions.

If you're referring to Wireknight's post, his comments don't come anywhere near abuse. He made a cogent, well-reasoned, logical argument. he refrained from attacking the personal motives or proclivities of the FAQ authors, and was quite rational in the whole thing.

QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman)
At the very least, it gives me an opportunity to blow off work for a few minutes and read the ranting and raving of dumpshock rules lawyers.

Rules lawyers? The closest DS seems to have are bookninjas. But most posters don't come near what I'd consider a Rules Lawyer so much as highly opinionated partisans.

QUOTE (Kenshi)
I don't know why anyone complains about the FAQ.  If you don't like it, don't use it.  We are lucky to even have a FAQ.  The powers-that-be are taking time to answer our questions.  We shouldn't be complaining about it.  We should be thanking them.

Because not all of us have the benefit of playing this game for years, and those people should be able to expect a well-reasoned, logical response to a FAQ--since they did go and bother to make one.
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toturi
post Mar 4 2005, 12:23 AM
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QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Rules lawyers? The closest DS seems to have are bookninjas.

You called for a bookninja? :D

Boy, am I glad that the FAQ ain't canon. You know, somethings they should leave well alone, like Invis.
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 4 2005, 02:33 PM
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The FAQ gets no sympathy from me. I hold nothing against its creators, but I despise their creation. I might feel the depths of my black heart vaguely warmed if, say, the FAQ were only a place for interpretation of preexisting rules rather than for the wholesale creation of new ones, or if, for instance, the interpretations or rules created therein didn't contradict large sections of the preexisting rules, but from my perspective, as it stands, the FAQ is quite a bit worse than no FAQ.

~J
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Tarantula
post Mar 4 2005, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The FAQ gets no sympathy from me. I hold nothing against its creators, but I despise their creation. I might feel the depths of my black heart vaguely warmed if, say, the FAQ were only a place for interpretation of preexisting rules rather than for the wholesale creation of new ones, or if, for instance, the interpretations or rules created therein didn't contradict large sections of the preexisting rules, but from my perspective, as it stands, the FAQ is quite a bit worse than no FAQ.

~J

Seconded.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 4 2005, 03:38 PM
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For the most part, I agree too. The FAQ is not a place to change the rules and pretend those changes are cannonical just because they appear on the website. Rule changes are for errata, or better yet an actual new edition (please let's not have a Shadowrun 3.5). I like that they're trying to clarify some of the stickier points in the rules, but 1) They're approaching it from the wrong angle, 2) They're creating almost as many loopholes and inconsistancies as they fix, and 3) They're publishing it in the wrong place, and in the wrong format for it to be palatable.
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Kenshi
post Mar 4 2005, 04:26 PM
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That's all well and good but can ANY of you offer a better way to go about it? The "Rules" and "Clarifications" in the FAQ may make you want to jump into traffic (again, see my "don't like, don't use" policy), but does anyone have a better idea?

Cause if you do, forget the FAQ and use your own idea instead... :D
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Fortune
post Mar 4 2005, 04:46 PM
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A few suggestions were made in some of the many other threads about this topic that have cropped up in the last couple of days.
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Tarantula
post Mar 4 2005, 04:38 PM
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How about errata, official changes to the rules?
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nezumi
post Mar 4 2005, 04:40 PM
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I know this is the 'be nice to the FAQ author' thread, but I have to throw in with Kage.

Suppose I'm a new GM, I don't know anything about invisibility. When my player does do something tricky, I can do a few things...

1) Call it as I see it. Result: Possibly good, possibly very bad
2) Research on DS, or speak with an experienced gm. Result: Most likely very good
3) Follow the FAQ. Result: good to teh suck as the player casts invis on his elemental and bullets loose all meaning to him.

If the FAQ isn't availble, I'm no worse off than I was in case 1, plus there's the fact that the player can't whine 'it's in the FAQ' and have me, as stupid newbie GM, make a foolish mistake. At least if I made it up, rules lawyering is disallowed, which isn't always the case with users of the FAQ.

The FAQ should be well researched, or not exist at all.
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ShadowGhost
post Mar 4 2005, 04:45 PM
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Offer a better way... yes... how about an FAQ that doesn't contradict SR3 rules?

How about playtesting the new additions to errata and FAQ first, even trying them out at gaming cons etc, see how they work.

In defense of the fine folks who try an update the FAQ - I like/agree with many of the things they have on the FAQ.... and when something is really off - they do listen:
QUOTE
Does the reduced Essence Cost from cyberware grade (alpha, beta or delta) count when calculating the "free" Essence Cost of accessories for cybereyes and cyberears? For example, does an opticam (normally 0.5 Essence, 0.4 alphaware) take up the full 0.5 of free Essence in the cybereye, or only 0.4?
Yes, the grade counts when calculating the 0.5 of free Essence. So an alphaware opticam would only take 0.4 of the free Essence.

[As several fans pointed out, the previous answer provided to this question was contradicted by an example in SR3, so the FAQ has been modified appropriately.]


As you can see in the last sentance - they make changes. Point things out politely, give them page references/examples, or why something is "broken" or affects Game Balance, and give them a chance to change it.

Simply jumping in, calling them names (i.e. "What were they smoking?") isn't going to endear them to this community.

So if you don't like the FAQ - write to Rob Boyle, line developer, and (politely), explain why, offer alternatives, list page numbers, examples. And please, try to write professionally, and to the point (i.e. leave the leetspeak behind, use proper grammar, break up sentances into proper paragraphs etc.)

The easier you make it to read your email, and the clarity of your explanations etc. will go a long way to getting things changed.

I have written to Rob - I haven't heard back yet, but it's still way early from what I've seen of response times.

When I hear back from him, I'll let you know.
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Xirces
post Mar 4 2005, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)


1) Call it as I see it. Result: Possibly good, possibly very bad

I'd guess that nine times out of ten that this actually gives the best results - most of the problems with the FAQ rulings are that people think about it too much. If you don't think about it the problems just go away :)
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 4 2005, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowGhost @ Mar 4 2005, 11:45 AM)

QUOTE
Does the reduced Essence Cost from cyberware grade (alpha, beta or delta) count when calculating the "free" Essence Cost of accessories for cybereyes and cyberears? For example, does an opticam (normally 0.5 Essence, 0.4 alphaware) take up the full 0.5 of free Essence in the cybereye, or only 0.4?
Yes, the grade counts when calculating the 0.5 of free Essence. So an alphaware opticam would only take 0.4 of the free Essence.

[As several fans pointed out, the previous answer provided to this question was contradicted by an example in SR3, so the FAQ has been modified appropriately.]


As you can see in the last sentance - they make changes. Point things out politely, give them page references/examples, or why something is "broken" or affects Game Balance, and give them a chance to change it.

About that... is the above ruling the changed one, or the one that is later changed? I never ran into that rule before; I always assumed that all eyes no matter the grade held .5 Essense of mods for "free." That always seemed to make more sense to me; it's not like you multiply the reaction boost of alphaware Wired Reflexes by .8 or anything. In the same way the .5 Essence thing always seemed like a flat feature to me, rather than something that got worse depending on the grade. If that's not how it is I'd sure like to know; I'll have to change a couple of characters I wrote up.

(Edit): Of course, I also thought it was really dumb that alpha and better obvious cyberlimbs were worse at holding things than regular cyberlimbs, citing that the non-alpha ones were less streamlined and thus had bulkier internals that... got in the way with the peripherals less, somehow. Or something.
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Tarantula
post Mar 4 2005, 05:42 PM
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It does hold .5 of essence. However because the parts its holding don't take up as much essence (.4 for an alpha opticam) they don't take up as much space in the eye either, leaving more room free for more parts.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 4 2005, 05:47 PM
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Er, right. Yeah, I completely read that backwards or something. I really ought to go to bed now.
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Apathy
post Mar 4 2005, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE
Offer a better way... yes... how about an FAQ that doesn't contradict SR3 rules?

You say that as if it were easy/possible. Can you come up with a ruling on how invisibility works that makes any degree of logical sense and at the same time doesn't provide huge loopholes for an aspiring PC munchkin to exploit? I know I don't do it that well.

I strongly disagree with some of the things that have shown up in the FAQ, but I do appreciate that the developers care enough to have one, and recognize that they're not going to get it quite right on the first try sometimes.
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Endgame50
post Mar 4 2005, 08:47 PM
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Maybe they should move invisibility over to manipulation, remove the invisibility spell, and rename improved invisibility normal invisibility. Game effect: Makes you unable to be seen by sensors (including eyes) that utilize the electromagnetic spectrum... now how to fit a resist check in there...
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 4 2005, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (Apathy)
You say that as if it were easy/possible. Can you come up with a ruling on how invisibility works that makes any degree of logical sense and at the same time doesn't provide huge loopholes for an aspiring PC munchkin to exploit? I know I don't do it that well.

SIMPLE. If something is impossible to call, then don't call. A "this question is nearly impossible to answer in a way that will make everyone happy, so it is left up to the GM's discretion" would go a long way.

That being said, even for how messy Invis is a godawful job has been done with it.

~J
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ShadowGhost
post Mar 4 2005, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Endgame50)
Maybe they should move invisibility over to manipulation, remove the invisibility spell, and rename improved invisibility normal invisibility. Game effect: Makes you unable to be seen by sensors (including eyes) that utilize the electromagnetic spectrum... now how to fit a resist check in there...

I think you mean "makes you unable to be seen by sensors (including eyes) that utilize the visbile and infrared (thermographic vision) range of the electromagnetic spectrum.

The electromagnetic spectrum is comprised of everything from Gamma radiation to radio waves, and everything in between, including the visible light spectrum.

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