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> If the troll is quick, can he be stealthy?, Silent vs. Groundpounder Trolls
Should a troll's ability to use stealth be like any other character's or should it be penalized in someway?
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CanvasBack
post Sep 10 2003, 03:20 PM
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Lately, this has bugged me. On the one hand you have folks who have quite legitimately spent their points and bought their cyber/bioware to make their troll pretty quick. Stealth for better or worse is a quickness related skill. So, when a player decides to give a troll stealth, naturally most assume they won't be penalized automatically. But as a player, I've seen wide variance from how GMs handle this from yes, the troll can be sneaky to no, it doesn't make sense for something that big to be quick/agile/sneaky and most are somewhere in between.

Personally, since stealth is an open roll and it's challenged by perception, I don't think the troll player's roll should be penalized at all. I could see giving a perceiver a bonus to his/her roll in certain situations, a troll's heat signature should be easier to spot using thermographic vision for example. But, situational modifiers like that aside I don't think the troll should be penalized automatically using stealth. Where do the rest of you folks stand?


The poll is fairly self-explanatory. Penalizing the troll a little works out to either -1 or -2 on a check, moderately -3 to -4, seriously -5 or more or perhaps taking away dice for the test...

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TinkerGnome
post Sep 10 2003, 03:30 PM
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They troll shouldn't have a general penalty, but there should probably be a penalty in specific situations. If, for instance, there is a wooden walkway involved, there should be a TN penalty as the troll's much greater mass strains the boards. If he's trying to hide in an open room with only a little cover, there should be a TN penalty because he can't get his bulk into a space a human could.

For general "sneaking up on the place" type stealth, though, no penalty. Part of the troll's training would be geared toward how to hide himself as much as a human's training would be. The two sets of knowledge would be completely different and, should it ever happen, the knowledge of a human in a troll's body would be nearly useless and vice versa (maybe skill chips would have to be bought with the types?).

A troll adept with traceless walk gets around most of the issues ;)
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Ed_209a
post Sep 10 2003, 03:38 PM
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I would not penalize a troll using stealth to move quietly, unless the surface he is walking on would protest his weight.

Using stealth to hide would be a different matter. Big things are simply harder to hide than small things.

On the other hand, only a troll could cut the bottom out of a dumpster and use it as a mobile disguise.

...And I just paraphrased TinkerGnome... :|

Well, I agree with TinkerGnome then.
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DigitalMage
post Sep 10 2003, 04:26 PM
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What the others said.

Basically the size of a troll hinders their ability to stay out of sight and they should maybe be penalised for this. Also they are potentially more likely to make noise as they will find it harder to tread softly and more likely to brush against objects in confined space (think of a troll sneaking through a narrow "galley" type kitchen with pans hanging from the ceiling and plates on open racks etc).
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CanvasBack
post Sep 10 2003, 04:29 PM
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Quote: Ed_209a
QUOTE
Using stealth to hide would be a different matter. Big things are simply harder to hide than small things


Quote: DigitalMage
QUOTE
Also they are potentially more likely to make noise as they will find it harder to tread softly and more likely to brush against objects in confined space ...


See, I don't even think that these examples could be taken for granted. Think about the Siberian Tiger or even an Elk. Huge animals that are near silent when they run and the tiger of course is actually designed for hiding and elk blend in pretty well. Of course, this is in their natural habitat. It just depends on the situation, if the troll is in an area with little cover he's probably screwed, of course a human in an area with little cover is likely just as screwed. If a facility has large cargo containers lying about, they probably help the troll to the extent of getting full use out of the stealth but would a smaller race necessarily get bonuses to hide in such an environment. I don't think so because not in line of sight, is simply not in line of sight. Anyway, good answers so far keep them coming. Feel free to explain alternate solutions.
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SugarDog
post Sep 10 2003, 06:21 PM
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I was going to say the same thing, CanvasBack, except I was going to use grizzly bears as an example. Huge, not even terribly dexterous, but scarily sneaky when they want to be.

One possible tweak, though it seems minor, would not to penalize trolls for sneaking, but to give others a bonus to perceive trolls. This alters the incentive structure somewhat (by not reducing the marginal valur of another point of stealth skill by so much), and also does not limit a troll's noticability to when he/she is sneaking. Bidpeal tanks are always tankish, not only when they are try ing not to be. :)
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John Campbell
post Sep 10 2003, 06:53 PM
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Trolls have a lower Sig than other races by default, IIRC. 4 vs. 5? (I'm too lazy to get up and check my book.) It doesn't seem unreasonable to give them the same -1 penalty to be detected with the Mark I Eyeball.
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Glyph
post Sep 10 2003, 07:10 PM
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I concur with the general consensus. Trolls should occasionally suffer a situational modifier because of their size or weight, but not a general modifier.
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Bearclaw
post Sep 10 2003, 09:18 PM
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Trolls are already penalized in two ways:
1. They get a -1 to quickness, and
2. They have a heat sig of 5, rather than 6.
I think those two cover the large size problem pretty well.
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Talia Invierno
post Sep 10 2003, 09:31 PM
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There's also more than one way to hide. Thus far everyone has been referring to the idea of using environment for direct concealment. However, hiding in plain sight is another possibility which falls under the stealth rules: how to move within an environment while looking like one belongs. For example, a PC could be using a crowd for physical concealment, or that same PC could be moving with that crowd in plain sight but in such a way as to seem completely an anonymous part of the crowd. You're not trying to actually hide (not be visible) within the crowd, you're trying not to attract attention. The same could apply in other types of environments as well: how would a PC look as though they belong within a wageslave column, or within a government forest, or in a Z-zone?

No inherent reason the troll should have penalties to any of these. (Edit: there could be environment-specific reasons, of course - the troll trying to move with the column of wageslaves is going to look very out of place if that company hires only humans and elves, no matter how stealthy that troll is.)
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Dashifen
post Sep 10 2003, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (CanvasBack)
It just depends on the situation, if the troll is in an area with little cover he's probably screwed, of course a human in an area with little cover is likely just as screwed. .

Yeah, but the human can just use the troll for cover :D

--- Dashifen ---
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Thansal
post Sep 11 2003, 01:02 AM
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simple solution:

Troll gets no penaltie

but then there are simple silly things that are NOT possible due to sheer size (palmtree) :P

then you can also think about things along the lines of

'well lower sig makes things esier to pick up'
well, a trolls got a lower sig then a human, so modify those rules to fit?
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CanvasBack
post Sep 11 2003, 05:19 PM
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Well, nice to see that this thread has remained civil.

The heat signature issue was originally meant to come into play vs. vehicle's sensors/drones and metahumans with thermographic vision be it through innate ability or some form of equipment. Against sentries without recourse to these things, I still can't really see penalizing troll size vs. normal vision. Although now that I think about it, ultrasound should probably get the bonus vs. the troll's sig. There are of course ways of modifying signature, if you can pay the costs. Just to reiterate, I'm not in favor of penalizing the troll's rolls but in situations that warrant it, giving the potential perceiver bonuses to his/her rolls.

Anyway, I'd like to see this thread keep going awhile. Would anybody who voted for treating the troll more harshly like to speak up. I promise not to bite. :D
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Raptor1033
post Sep 11 2003, 06:36 PM
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i voted for no change because if you're going to penalize the troll for being large or give others bonuses to percieve him then for balance you're going to have to give dwarves, gnomes, and other small beings bonuses for their small size and penalize others to percieve them.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Sep 12 2003, 01:21 AM
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QUOTE (Raptor1033)
i voted for no change because if you're going to penalize the troll for being large or give others bonuses to percieve him then for balance you're going to have to give dwarves, gnomes, and other small beings bonuses for their small size and penalize others to percieve them.

Well of cause you would. the gnome can fit in a backpack (Without the extra pouches) so i would give a gnome (or any small metahuman) some type of bonus. if the situation warrents it.

It's simple a troll would need a dumpster to hide behind, a human, ork elf could get away with a trash can type bin. where as the gnome could get away with 1 of the 2 bags thats in the trash can.
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Raptor1033
post Sep 12 2003, 02:47 AM
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hehe i still love the gnome mage in a backpack idea
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kenji
post Sep 12 2003, 05:12 AM
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ah, someone already made the Tiger reference. do you know how much a Bengal or Siberian Tiger *weighs*?? sweet jeebus.

noise-wise, i see no reason to penalize a troll. sensors are already twice as likely to pick em up anyways. and the quickness penalty is enough that they'd have to go out of their way to learn high stealth, sacrificing growth in other areas.
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CanvasBack
post Sep 12 2003, 04:24 PM
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It looks like most people don't want to penalize the troll or if they do only a little bit. I still kinda wonder about those who still want to make the troll's life more difficult. Anybody want to try and make the case for no sneaking trolls? :wobble:
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Aramus
post Sep 12 2003, 08:44 PM
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Just let the Perception TN lower for the PC or NPC, don't penalize the Troll. Maybe you can up the time it need to cover (speaking of the troll).
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Crimson Jack
post Sep 13 2003, 06:33 PM
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Well, a player who makes a stealthy troll should know that he/she's playing a huge character, so they shouldn't bitch if there isn't anything to hide behind when they're at the end of an alley and all that they can see is a trashcan and two crates of moldy vegetables. On the other hand, stealth is the art of concealment. The happy middle ground is that said troll will be able to use his/her skills to be more of a ninja than his non-stealthed counterpart, but should realize that he's one step away from a huge frickin' monster. I think I would try to be understanding of this if it were my character.

I like what a previous poster said about this. Apply situational modifiers. Nuff said. :P
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NightWind
post Sep 13 2003, 07:24 PM
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:D

I'm on a split decision, but I went with the Very Light selection.

I believes that, with a little practice, even Trolls can be quite stealthy. It's not the size that matters, or the bulk. It's how you decide to move, or not, that makes the difference.

Here's an example:

I fight in full armor with a bunch of Midieval Recreationists *Society for Creative Anachronism* I'm pretty quiet since most of my armor is hard leather. Okay?

But there are others, when in armor, look like Trolls. Big, heavy metal armor, noisy, Huge. You would think that you could hear em a mile away in the middle of a herd of buffallo. Wong.

I've had these guys come up on me. And I do mean SNEAK up on me in the middle of a forrest battle and clunk me on the helmet. They can even do it in open field as well. They've had tons of practice doing it.

So, if my fighter Troll guys can do stuff like that in full metal armor. I think we can give the Trolls a break and only tweak em a little bit when they're being stealthy. Sound Fair enough?

NightWind
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Icepick
post Sep 15 2003, 01:04 AM
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So, we've decided it's going to be situational. But what kind of situations?
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TinkerGnome
post Sep 15 2003, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE (Icepick)
So, we've decided it's going to be situational. But what kind of situations?

Situations where size and weight matter?

For instance, weight would matter when crossing a noisy floor of some sort (tuned floorboards), traversing tricky footing (such as a gravelly slope), or the like. Size would matter when there was very little natural cover (say the only feature for miles on an open plain is sparse 3' bushes, that'd penalize a troll), hiding places are too small, or the troll simply stands out above the group he is trying to blend in with.
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CanvasBack
post Sep 15 2003, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE
(Icepick)  So, we've decided it's going to be situational. But what kind of situations?


QUOTE
(TinkerGnome) For instance, weight would matter when crossing a noisy floor of some sort (tuned floorboards), traversing tricky footing (such as a gravelly slope)...


Heh, wouldn't tuned floorboards, tricky footing, or anything of that nature really count against just about anybody walking across them? In these situations, I think it is better to give potential perceivers a bonus rather than penalizing the troll-player's roll, the idea being, the character is in control of what he/she can control but the physical environment as constructed by the GM can make detecting intruders easier. In that sense, any situational disadvantage for the troll results in a bonus to what a guard/sentry can control, perception and awareness. From a game mechanics point of view, for me it comes down to the fact that stealth is an open opposed roll, so modifying the player's roll as with TN mods in combat doesn't really do the situation justice. It penalizes those with low skill levels too much and really doesn't penalize the higher skilled folks enough since they have a better chance of exploding dice by rolling more. Giving the perceiver the bonus eliminates that disparity. A low stealth troll is still at a disadvantage but a poor roll won't automatically be disastrous while virtual troll ninjas will have to wonder if they can overcome being the size of a VW Bug. So, in the floorboard situation if a dwarf/elf/human effed up and walked across these and gave a +1 mod to a guard's perception test, the troll might get +2? ;)


I have to admit though, the blending into a crowd situation is really where the troll falls down. There are certain areas where trolls congregate but downtown just isn't one of them. The troll population is small to begin with and heavily discriminated against. I could see a GM making a spot ruling in certain areas that no, a troll character simply cannot fade into the crowd in certain, if not most, contexts. :P
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TheScamp
post Sep 15 2003, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE
Giving the perceiver the bonus eliminates that disparity.

The disparity is there, no matter who you give the bonus/penalty to. It's not going to change the outcome one bit. If you give the troll a -2 to his rolls, then a roll of 6 becomes a 4. If you give the bonus to the perceiver, then they still only need a 4 to succeed in the roll. No matter where you apply it, the effects are exactly the same.
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