Combat Sense, early warning system |
Combat Sense, early warning system |
Mar 6 2005, 10:27 AM
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#1
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
The description of the combat sense spell says that the subject can better analyze dangerous situations, and detect events before they happen. Is that good enough to act as a tripwire for targeting anybody that attacks you?
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Mar 6 2005, 10:37 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
I'd lean more toward Detect Enemies for that purpose, but I suppose its possible.
EDIT - With a very liberal GM. |
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Mar 6 2005, 10:45 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Nope, it just adds to combat pool... Notice it dosen't add to surprise tests, etc like the adept power does...
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Mar 6 2005, 10:56 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
It just gives you enough of a supernatural sense to dodge out of the way before you saw the attack coming, sort of like a spider sense. It doesn't actually tell you anything about what's threatening you, nor does it provide warning until the moment you dodge.
JaronK |
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Mar 6 2005, 11:13 AM
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#5
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You get extra dice for surprise situations, unlike the spell of the same name. Oops, we were talking about the same thing. |
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Mar 6 2005, 12:01 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
I'd say it's a GM call. I could see it being successfully debated by a player though.
The only issue I've always had with using a Detect Enemies (or in this case a Combat Sense) as an anchor's trigger (digression - insert rant about how much anchoring sucks in 3rd Ed) is dealing with the everyday flashes of hostility. Picture the scene: Dr. Frost has finished his new anchored and linked "Detect Enemies/Icebolt" combo for getting the jump on attackers. Proudly pinning it to his jacket he heads out of a night on the town at Dantes. En route to the bar, he accidentally steps on someone's foot . "Motherfragger!" WHOOOOSH. |
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Mar 6 2005, 06:08 PM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
tisoz didn't fully express what he's trying to ask. the situation: i allow characters to use the combat sense spell as the linked detection spell for an anchoring focus. the spell does not provide its normal benefit to the character (i hadn't mentioned this, previously, because i didn't really see the spell as a point of discussion), since it's not cast on the character himself, but rather on his anchoring focus--which, obviously, has no use for combat pool.
the spell then trips the anchoring focus if the focus' owner is attacked. it wouldn't trip if he got tagged with a spell (except elemental manips), since spells don't allow the use of combat pool to resist. basically, instead of working up something as useless as a "detect physical attack" spell, i figure it's easier to just use an existing spell. |
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Mar 6 2005, 08:02 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
Oh. Well I don't think I'd let combat sense be used as the linked detection spell.
I'd suggest to the player that he/she just use the spell design rules to make a, as you said, "Detect Attack" or use Detect Enemies, as that is an existing spell with other uses. |
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Mar 6 2005, 10:53 PM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i just don't see the use of designing a whole new spell that is only useful for setting of an anchoring focus. i mean, i suppose if you're an IE with hundreds of thousands of karma, you can afford a Detect Gary Coleman spell just to be good and sure that the freaky little bastard never gets within ten feet of you. but otherwise? combat sense helps you detect incoming attacks. the mechanics of that detection are, you get a bonus to your combat pool. but that doesn't change the fact that you're detecting stuff.
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Mar 6 2005, 10:48 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 19-July 04 From: N 42° 43.799'. W 84° 27.901' Member No.: 6,496 |
Seems like another example of flavor text vs. game effect. I thought combat sense worked persistently, as if you always got the limited precognition or whatever you'd like to call it, as long as the spell was up. You'd get a "flash of insight" when you were attacked (+combat pool), but it seems a little too general and untargetted to work as a trigger--at least for anyone but the holder of the focus.
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Mar 6 2005, 10:51 PM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's the only use i'm talking about. tisoz's wording leaves it quite a bit more open than i'm actually proposing that it is.
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Mar 7 2005, 04:50 AM
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#12
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Why would anyone ever take a 'detect (attack)' spell then? Why would the rules say you need one for different things? Combat sense beats detection spells by having a lower TN in many cases (constant base of 4), works in place of infinite detection spells, doesn't depend on successes for information like detection spells, is not resisted, plus it gives some added benefit of adding to combat pool.
No way it gets allowed to replicate detection spells. |
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Mar 7 2005, 01:17 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you don't get the combat pool the spell normally provides, because the spell isn't being cast on you. the replacement of infinite detection spells is the whole point of using it for an anchoring trigger; as others have pointed out, detect enemy is too volatile, and detect (each and every possible form of attack) is so specialized as to be utterly useless outside of anchoring. great, let's make anchoring even more useless and expensive. you could make a detect (attacker) spell, but that's exactly what the combat sense spell already does.
the lack of a resistance roll on the part of the target is worth thinking about, but it's not enough to make combat sense by-the-book invalid for a linked detection spell. and i'd like to point out that combat sense wouldn't be replicating anything. it is a detection spell. edit: though, hm. combat sense affects only the subject--that's why it's not resisted. since the subject, in this case, would be the anchoring focus, i'm not sure if it'd trigger for attacks directed at the focus' owner. |
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Mar 7 2005, 02:47 PM
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#14
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
So why call it the combat sense spell at all? It doesn't do what the combat sense spell does, but does all kinds of other things. Maybe you like the stable TN 4 and can't be resisited? Or you just like the name, even though a spell already exists with that name and an adept power by the name. :please:
Then why have all the detect _______ spells? Everyone would just learn this one terrific spell. It would be like creating an Increase Attributes spell with a TN of 4 that increases all 6 attributes, reaction, and initiative. This isn't intended to be a strawman, but an analogy.
There should be drawbacks to having magic constantly on.
But you want to use it for anchoring. You are not making much sense.
This spell would surely make it a bargain for detecting attacks. It wouldn't affect any other types of anchors unless you use the principal and had something like a Increase All Attributes anchor. But I think this is one of the reasons you want this spell, to circumvent the cost. What if this spell existed and worked how you want? Why wouldn't every Lone Star cop, security guard, mercenary, soldier, border guard, etc. have it in a focus? It would have to be cheaper than paying insurance claims, hospital bills, training expenses for replacements, and disability benefits. Plus the grief it would save to friends and relatives.
No it doesn't. Only your munchkin version with the same name does this, only you don't understand or won't accept that it is a too good to be true spell. the lack of a resistance roll on the part of the target is worth thinking about, but it's not enough to make combat sense by-the-book invalid for a linked detection spell.
I was probably unclear here. I meant it replaces all detect __________ (bullet, grenade, enemy, arrow, knife, caltrop, etc.) spells. Why should one spell replace virtually dozens. How about the Incr. All Attr. spell? Or in the same exact way as yours the Feel I'm being watched spell: detects camara's, microphones, anyone watching, anything watching, any critter watching, any drone sensors, any ultrasound, any detection spell, etc. and give it a TN 4 and say it can't be resisted. |
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Mar 7 2005, 03:16 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, it provides the normal benefits of the combat sense spell to your anchoring focus. obviously, the anchoring focus can't make use of the combat pool--but it's still able to make use of the sensory data provided by the spell.
i don't see combat sense replacing detect X, for mages who want to be able to find item X at any given time. detect explosives, for demolitions mages; detect firearm, for security mages; detect fat booty, for clubber mages.
i'm trying to keep the costs of anchoring down. surely you can see that if you have to make a unique spell for every seperate form of attack you want to protect yourself against, that increases the cost of anchoring.
now you're the one not making sense. a detection spell linked to an anchoring focus doesn't provide the holder of that focus with any benefit. the only thing the linked detection spell does is set off the anchored spell. the obvious reason why every LS cop, security guard, mercenary, soldier, and border guard doesn't have one is that anchoring foci cause drain for their creator every time they're used.
so... despite the fact that the spell description says that the subject can sense things, they actually can't sense those things? that's an interesting interpretation, there. besides all which? MitS says "detection spells". it doesn't say "detection spells, except combat sense". the logical conclusion is that combat sense is a valid trigger spell for anchoring foci. |
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Mar 7 2005, 03:36 PM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'd have to say no to this one too, mfb. I would allow a character to create a Detect Attacker spell though.
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Mar 7 2005, 03:49 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
At best, it would activate whenever combat sense would grant you the extra dice (as thats combat senses effect for noticed attackers).
So, the anchored to combat sense focus would only do the triggered spell when you were in a surprise situation. And thats the most lenient opinion you'll get. |
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Mar 7 2005, 04:33 PM
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#18
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Which is nothing. If it bestowed all these other benefits you grant it, they would make some note of it. It is fluff text. It isn't a tactical computer complete with targeting sensors and full compliment of detect ______ spells. Why can't it do anything else? Because it is not directed outward like vision or an area spell like Detect ___________ spells. It just happens to be the only detection spell that has no outward sense.
Exactly. If you want protection from every form of attack, you need to pay.
It would only cause random drain when combat sense triggered another spell. It would cause controlled drain when the combat sense spell was cast. Mage casts spell puts it on security guy. Shift ends without incident, pass anchor on to guy on next shift. If it does get triggered, it could activate an armor spell, or whatever. Mage takes drain, at worst has headache. Hopefully guard survives, but mage can alert the rest of security that anchor got triggered.
It's the hair on the back of your neck rising. It's the little voice in the back of your head. The spell isn't directional or area, how is it finding outward targets?
Because it is the exception to the detection class of spells? Because they meant detect _______ spells? For the same reason you shouldn't even be able to use Catalog to target things; it is a detection spell. How about analyze device? It's a detection spell. |
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Mar 7 2005, 05:17 PM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not granting combat sense anything more than what it says in the book. the spell descriptions are not "fluff text", they're explanations for what the spells do.
that's fluff text. the spell locates targets the same way it provides combat pool: analyzing the situation, peeking into the future. 18 karma plus 180,000 nuyen plus finding a mage willing to take drain any time of the day or night, and then compensating him for doing so? that's paying. i really don't see why your anchoring focus idea is a bad thing. you could do the same thing with detect enemy for the same cost; in the limited application of security work, the chances of it randomly going off when you spill someone's coffee are greatly reduced. why does linking it to combat sense make it suddenly broken and scary? catalog and analyze device are both valid detection spells for anchoring foci. a catalog-linked anchoring focus would be a handy-thing to give to mundane inspector: if there aren't 100 optical chips in the case he's checking, the anchoring focus hits the chips with a low-end entertainment spell, making them glow so that the inspector knows something's up. analyze device could check your deck for malfunctions, and trigger a fix spell if any part is broken. |
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Mar 7 2005, 05:15 PM
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#20
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Astral window, enhance aim, mindlink, nightvision, translate? Those can all be triggers on anchoring foci how?
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Mar 7 2005, 05:16 PM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if someone comes up with a decent, sensible explanation for how, are you going to tell them no?
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Mar 7 2005, 05:43 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Does a decent sensible explanation exist?
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Mar 7 2005, 05:51 PM
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#23
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Yes you are by giving them an area effect. Unless they are detecting the subject/target of the spell, they have no more range.
I thought it was an explanation of how the spell worked while conforming to the constraints in the description and the mechanics. Saying it somehow does all the things you want to claim it does from the same description overlooks the mechanics and the limits of the spell.
One too many zeroes because it doesn't need to be reusable. That cuts down on the karma, too. Pass part of the cost on to the employee and probably get a break on insurance premiums for reasons previousely cited.
Because it will not operate the way you are claiming.
Notice the TN is now 6 and that this actually has a range, unlike combat sense. Catalog would count the number of chips. How is it determining that it doesn't match a specific number? Magic is mindless.
Notice a harder to hit TN of OR and that the sense is directed similar to field of vision for range. Would trigger a fix spell for any non-living thing within range of the spell whether it needed fixed or not. |
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Mar 7 2005, 06:20 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Combat sense is a power that essencially says "oh crap dodge now!" when you're being surprised. That's pretty much it. Ask yourself this: does your version of Combat Sense do everything that detect: incomming bullet would do, and more, for less? If so, it's unbalanced.
JaronK |
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Mar 7 2005, 06:49 PM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no idea. but if someone came up with one, can you find a book explanation to deny them that use? you've got a good point, with the range thing. i'll revise my stance: since combat sense has no range beyond the subject it's cast on, you can't use it target anything besides the subject. that makes my original example from the dragons thread invalid--the dragon couldn't use combat sense as a trigger spell for an anchored manabolt. i still contend that combat sense could be used to trigger a barrier spell, or flame aura, or even a manabolt directed at the holder of the focus. combat sense may not detect attackers, but it certainly detects attacks--at least, those directed against the subject of the spell. it's not my version of combat sense. moreover, since combat sense is S drain and detect (object) is +1M, combat sense should do more than detect (object). as far as i can tell, detect (incoming bullet) would be an even more limited version of detect (bullet), which means the drain gap would widen even further. |
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