 Small unit tactics, whats the deal? |
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 Mar 7 2005, 07:01 PM
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#1
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It's for winners  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 523 Joined: 8-February 05 From: Wiltshire with da shooty stuff Member No.: 7,067  |
Right you can all imagen it, it's a saturday afternoon and we are creating characters, usual moaning and so forth. Then one of our group turns round and say's we all need Small unit tactics, 'yeah cool , good idea' we all pipe in.
However to this day I have never used it or seen anyone else use it, have we just wasted the points or is there a valid use for it? I mean there must be or it Would'ent be in the rules! I just never actually put it to the test. Can someone please explain it to me so I can ether turn round and say 'Nar thats a load of drek!' or actually use it in a game! looked in SR3 and still at a loss! torz x :-? |
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Mar 7 2005, 07:03 PM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you all took it, yes, you wasted points on most of the characters. That being said, for one or two people it's invaluable; check Cannon Companion for the rules. The Rigger makes the best SUT user.
~J |
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Mar 7 2005, 07:04 PM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Huh? We use it all the time. It adds a few extra points to each person's next Intiative roll usually. The fastest sam uses his last Pass to use this skill to help boost the slower members a few points. The team is usually at least commlinked so they have some amount of communication beyond shouting and gesturing.
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Mar 7 2005, 07:05 PM
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#4
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think his point is that multiple folks in a team shouldn't sink too many points into SUT. |
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Mar 7 2005, 06:58 PM
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#5
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I wouldn't buy it for everyone on the team, not by a longshot. Buy it for characters that have a reason to know it (why would a bookish academic mage suddenly thrust into using his hermetic ability as a criminal be an expert at fire and manuever in an urban area?) -- and buy it for one, maybe two, people in the group tops (at start, at least).
It's a great way to get a bit of an edge for initiative when it comes to the deckers/riggers/mages (outside their specialty), and it especially appropriate and usefull if you've got a character that tends to "take charge" in the first place. It's not a bad trade-off to lose one action a round in exchange for the whole team getting a +1 or +2 (or more, especially if there's a tactical computer and/or Battletac gear involved) on initiative. |
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Mar 7 2005, 06:59 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Why not? Not everyone is always in the best postion to do SUT all the time. Also, it's nice to see folks getting some skills that "fit" the character instead of the "min/max" approach.
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Mar 7 2005, 07:10 PM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the rules are in Canon Companion. you have to have it as an active skill, for some reason. basically, you make a roll against a TN determined by your method of communication. for every 2 successes, you can add +1 to your team's init rolls (or rea dice, if you're setting an ambush), or, optionally, +1 to their combat pool. however, if two people are trying to use the skill on the same group, the TN goes up, and only the highest result applies.
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Mar 7 2005, 07:24 PM
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#8
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
It's kind of funny, but you seem to answer your own question. "Why not? It's nice to see folks getting some skills that fit the character instead of the min/max approach." Aside from the obvious -- as mentioned, some character types and archetypes and ideas just have no reason to be adept at this sort of thing -- there's also the issue of conflicting orders raising TN's (which is logical of them; if you're going to have a chain of command you stick to it, you don't just all roll SUT every single round and then claim to all be listening to whoever rolled the best). |
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Mar 7 2005, 07:19 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
My approach is more of "don't put all your eggs in one basket". It's nice to have backup on some skills and since we all love rolling dice, it gets people a chance to influence parts of the game that are normally off-limits. |
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Mar 7 2005, 07:22 PM
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#10
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'd argue that having every member of your team put 4-6 points into the same skill is, in a way, piling a whole lot of eggs into the SUT basket. It's not that much of an edge -- leave it to one or two characters who have both the reason to understand the SUT basics and the character type to give orders. Then you've got a primary field commander-type, and a backup (who's never standing right next to him, just in case).
Should be all you need. |
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Mar 7 2005, 07:52 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 14-January 05 Member No.: 6,976 |
Using SUT to grant initiative bonuses is a nice perk, but considering it costs a complex action to confer the bonus to others, the TN starts at 4 and climbs quickly, and you need two successes to grant a +1 bonus to init, you'll want to have equipment or augmentations (radio, battletac, etc.) which facilitate SUT. Like Kagetenshi said, the Rigger's probably the best SUT practitioner in this regard.
SUT is also very useful for stealthy killers, lone gunmen, breaking and entering type, snipers, and so forth. It doesn't cost an action to use SUT on yourself, though I've always been fuzzy on what TN to use in this situation. Should it be 4 (you must be in your own LOS afterall)? Do BattleTac mods apply? Regardless, when ambushing, reaction is nearly twice as good for the ambusher as the ambushed. Can dice pools be used with SUT (aside from Karma, obviously)? The combat pool is a bit iffy: it's definitely a "combat" skill, but the rules for combat pool state that combat pool is only for offensive weapon skills and defensive rolls such as dodging and staging down damage. What about the encephelon's task pool? MM p. 20 states that it can be used for all intelligence linked skills, while p. 48 states only technical, b/r, knowledge and language. |
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Mar 7 2005, 08:03 PM
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#12
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The bonus combat pool dice (if allowed) is an extremely nice boon that can mean the difference between a dead team, and a team that makes it out intact. While it is nice that folks would cross train in SUT, a well-oiled team would typically defer to a single leader/tactician-type to do most of their tactical planning, and thus, only one (or possibly two, if you have a backup) person would ever get a chance to use it on a regular basis.
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Mar 7 2005, 08:21 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I am not talking about the extreme case of every member dumping 4-6 dice into that, but the need for some degree of redundancy. However, if the players decided that they would all have the skill since they where all that type of player, then more power to them. I guess my beef is when players sit down and collectively decide to shape a groups skills with the direct goal of including/excluding skills from players instead of developing each character. On the other hand, if they manage a good background and can roleplay, then who cares. ;) |
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Mar 7 2005, 08:17 PM
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#14
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I don't have a beef with that at all, even though I agree that it is metagaming of sorts. If the team was actively trying to be a good team that works well together, they would probably have team meetings and practice sessions in the "Danger Room" (for lack of a better image), and this would shape the way they develop over time. The decker player, for example, might increase his pistols skill not because he was particularly inclined to learn pistols, but because he knew it was "for the good of the team". So the character goes off and reluctantly practices, and gets better at a skill he normally wouldn't get. As far as tactical knowledge, I can see one or two people really getting into it, a few people dozing off at the thought ("My totem tells me that you are boring"), and maybe some that will just slot the chip if he/she feels like it. |
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Mar 7 2005, 08:49 PM
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#15
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
SUT is a Technical Skill, so if available, the Task Pool should apply. |
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Mar 7 2005, 08:54 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it is? i'd never seen it listed as such, and had kinda been wondering. where's it say that at? i'm not arguing, i just wanna be sure.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 7 2005, 09:03 PM
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#17
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Guests |
... and M&M, and Matrix. And having perused all three books (I like bookmarks!), I did not see it mentioned anywhere that SUT is a Technical skill. It is a "special Active skill" (quote's the same in M&M and CC) linked to Intelligence. |
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Mar 7 2005, 09:10 PM
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#18
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Meh. I must have been subconsciously influenced by that insidious NSRCG program.
Be that as it may though, the Task Pool can be used for 'all' Intelligence-linked skills, so my point still applies. :D |
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Mar 7 2005, 10:29 PM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Nope, that only applies for certain Task Pool-granting items.
~J |
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Mar 7 2005, 10:42 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
bah. i was hoping he'd have a page number. i was thinking about picking up Centering: Technical skills to get a little more juice out of my Electronics and Electronics B/R skills. having it apply to SUT would be a niiice bonus.
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Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Centering: Technical... there's a fortune for some bugger on the Bomb Squad...
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Mar 7 2005, 11:08 PM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Still can't use Centering for Technical Skills, according to SotA'64. Pretty much anything but Technical Skills though.
I still think that SUT should fall into the Technical Skills category. What other Active Skills are listed in canon as being special, and not coming under one of the specified categories? |
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Mar 7 2005, 11:14 PM
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#23
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
You can't use Improved Ability for Technical Skills, but Centering is kosher for adepts, as explicitly stated in Magic in the Shadows. That being said, I think it should be a Technical skill, or at least take advantage of Task Pool dice. |
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Mar 7 2005, 11:26 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Duh, you're right! Consider it a confused, lack-of-sleep moment. :oops: |
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Mar 8 2005, 01:36 AM
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#25
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I've allowed PCs to use it on themselves. I use a base TN of 2, its got to be easier thinking to yourself than expressing it over a battle tac. It has to be the active skill. I think there was a time it may have been listed as a knowledge skill. |
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