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> Ally Spirits, Shamanic Spellcasting Prejudice
Fortune
post Mar 8 2005, 08:52 PM
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When a Shaman summons an Ally Spirit, then teaches it spells, would the Ally have the same modifiers to specific spell categories as the Shaman?

If, for instance. a Raccoon Shaman were to teach his Ally a Combat spell, would it have 1 less dice to use when it cast that spell? Would that same Ally get bonus dice for Manipulation spells?
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Nikoli
post Mar 8 2005, 08:51 PM
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That sounds appropriate, though it could be worse, they could be subject to the limitations of aspected shamanic sorcerers
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Prospero
post Mar 8 2005, 09:16 PM
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If you read the sorcery entry for allies strictly, then, no, they don't because they just have a skill equal to their summoner's, they don't cast like their summoner, which is sort of supported by the fact that both the spirit and the summoner can't learn a spell at the same time - the summoner has to learn it for his ally or for himself, implying that they use different methods.

Having said that, it makes sense to me. I mean, if your a shaman, your ally is likely to be related somehow to your totem, right? So why not have the same bonuses/penalties?
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Smed
post Mar 8 2005, 09:22 PM
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I'd house rule it that the Ally would have the same bonuses and limitations as the summoner.
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hahnsoo
post Mar 9 2005, 02:06 AM
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Then what happens when they go free? Spirits don't follow any magical traditions, per se, and I'm fairly certain they have a different view of magic than humanity (you don't see spirits conjuring other spirits, for example). Although folks may house rule Ally Spirits to follow totemic traditions while they are under the influence of their summoner, I don't see spirits retaining that totem after they are free.
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Cynic project
post Mar 9 2005, 04:26 AM
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Well, Spirits are magic. Free ally spirits don't take drain. They are not makes,and are not shamans. They can't learn conjuring,and the don't by themselves gain karma.
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Edward
post Mar 9 2005, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (MITS @ p109, sorcery, 2nd paragraph)

Allies are subject to the normal rules for sorcery, including drain.


unusual for spirits but there you have it.

Edward
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hahnsoo
post Mar 9 2005, 05:02 AM
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QUOTE (Edward)
QUOTE (MITS @ p109, sorcery, 2nd paragraph)

Allies are subject to the normal rules for sorcery, including drain.


unusual for spirits but there you have it.

Edward

Free Ally Spirits do not take drain. Under the rules for Free Spirits, the Sorcery power states that Drain does not affect the spirit.
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Tarantula
post Mar 9 2005, 05:20 AM
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As much sense as it makes to limit the spirit in that way. They do pay out the ass painfully so with karma in order to get the ally spirit, I'd say let the spirit act as a neutral spirit and not have any penalties/bonuses. Now, if you had a dove shaman (they can't cast combat spells IIRC) who had an ally spirit. And the ally spirit somehow learned a combat spell, it could cast it, but I would rule the dove shaman couldn't directly ask it to, it would have to be a case where the spirit was doing it of its own free will to either help itself get away, or help the shaman out.
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FrostyNSO
post Mar 9 2005, 05:21 AM
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Since the shaman has to develope a formula for the Ally, can he program into the formula "will follow raccoon"?

This leads to: Can an Ally's personality be created along with it?

As to the Ally getting the bonuses for the Shaman's totem:

The Totem chooses the shaman, not the other way around. One of the powers the totem chooses to give is the ability to cast certain spells better than others. (hence, the totem can choose to take this away if the shaman displeases it) A shaman can't confer this upon another being, the Totem has to.
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2005, 05:29 AM
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Yes, but the Ally is technically a part of the Shaman himself, and his actual Magic. That is why I asked.

I am enjoying reading the responses so far, and look forward to more opinions on the matter.
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RedmondLarry
post Mar 9 2005, 07:22 AM
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I'm with FrostyNSO on this one. Ally is not called by the Totem. Ally doesn't get Totem advantages / disadvantages. Just my 2 nuyen.
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2005, 07:35 AM
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I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I just think both sides of the argument are pretty much equally valid.
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Cochise
post Mar 9 2005, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
I'm not necessarily disagreeing. I just think both sides of the argument are pretty much equally valid.

And I wouldn't agree ... :)

1. Totem bonuses would be something like bonus dice based on their natural plane (in your example raccon's plane), but ally spirits explicitly don't get that although the conjuring shaman can chose the spirit's home plane freely (p. 108 MitS, Native Planes of Allies)

2. Even if you don't consider totemic bonuses as described under point 1, for something as important as bonus dice on spell casting for allies, IMHO you'd need an explicit rule that specifies something like that.
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hahnsoo
post Mar 9 2005, 07:57 AM
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Here's another thing: Does an ally also get any appropriate specializations of Sorcery when you create one? My thought is yes, but it's never really come up before, and nothing is specifically stated in the rules, just "An ally has the Sorcery Skill at a rating equal to its creature's Sorcery at the time of the spirit's creation"
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2005, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (Cochise @ Mar 9 2005, 06:53 PM)
And I wouldn't agree ...

The opposite point being that the Ally is typically created with the invested Magic Point of the Caster himself. I also recall reading that over time, they develop a personality and outlook similar to their summoner.
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Fortune
post Mar 9 2005, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Does an ally also get any appropriate specializations of Sorcery when you create one?

I've always ruled that they get the exact same level of the Sorcery Skill as their summoner, which includes any and all specializations. After all, specializations are considered to be part and parcel of their associated skill.
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torzzzzz
post Mar 9 2005, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
When a Shaman summons an Ally Spirit, then teaches it spells, would the Ally have the sam modifiers to specific spell categories as the Shaman?

If, for instance. a Raccoon Shaman were to teach his Ally a Combat spell, would it have 1 less dice to use when it cast that spell? Would that same Ally get bonus dice for Manipulation spells?

We always played it that the spirit has the same power as the force of the summon, i know this has already been saud but i would love to know if others play it differently?

torz x :P
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 9 2005, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
The opposite point being that the Ally is typically created with the invested Maigc Point of the Caster himself. I also recall reading that over time, they develop a personality and outlook similar to their summoner.

If that's so, then why is the section on allies filled with warnings about how the ally is constantly trying to free itself from its master? From the text you'd think that allies spent all their time plotting how to get the heck away from the mage that conjured them, not that they'd have similar personalities. The flavor text is one of the main reasons I'd be loathe to ever conjure one up in the first place; that's a whole heap of Karma for the GM to suddenly decide to screw you out of.
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hahnsoo
post Mar 9 2005, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE (torzzzzz)
We always played it that the spirit has the same power as the force of the summon, i know this has already been saud but i would love to know if others play it differently?

Ally Spirits are different from regular Nature spirits. You might want to read the relevant sections out of Magic in the Shadows.
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torzzzzz
post Mar 9 2005, 08:52 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (torzzzzz @ Mar 9 2005, 03:48 AM)
We always played it that the spirit has the same power as the force of the summon, i know this has already been saud but i would love to know if others play it differently?

Ally Spirits are different from regular Nature spirits. You might want to read the relevant sections out of Magic in the Shadows.

aah, don't have my mits with me at the moment, comment on the hock, I know should not open mouth before checked comment out! :P ;)

torz x
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tisoz
post Mar 9 2005, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
If that's so, then why is the section on allies filled with warnings about how the ally is constantly trying to free itself from its master? From the text you'd think that allies spent all their time plotting how to get the heck away from the mage that conjured them, not that they'd have similar personalities. The flavor text is one of the main reasons I'd be loathe to ever conjure one up in the first place; that's a whole heap of Karma for the GM to suddenly decide to screw you out of.

I was thinking you might be confusing allies with bound free spirits. I re-read the ally section, and the introduction does make it sound that way, if you overlook a sentence here and there. Basically the intro is saying that they pretty much follow the master without question. As they become more powerful, they may want independance.

Skip to the section about them having a chance to go free. There is a lot more information about how they may remain loyal, even if they could go free. They even have a nice example.
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DrJest
post Mar 9 2005, 01:59 PM
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What it boils down to is, how do you treat your ally? treat it like a slave, it'll screw you over at the first opportunity. Treat it like a friend and partner, it's unlikely to want to leave. I know my ally spirit ditched two chances to go free in favour of saving my sorry hind end.
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Prospero
post Mar 9 2005, 05:32 PM
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Definatly - just look at the exchange: do you give the ally more karma than it could get on its own and generally not torture it and make it do menial tasks? If they answer if yes, it isn't going anywhere. If you make it hurt too much or make it do stupid stuff like always getting you beers or something, it might get tired of it after a while. That's my take, anyway.
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wagnern
post Mar 9 2005, 06:24 PM
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if you wanted the ally to have your shamanic bonises and penaltys, you could ask your GM if you can play it as the Totem sent the Ally to you. (you would still have to pay the Karma exc.) Any minor advantages could be ballanced by the fact that treating the ally poorly would be taken personaly by the Totem (He did send it after all.) Any casting / materals / downtime involved in normaly aquiring an ally could be justifyed by some spirit quest (the shawman receaves a vision full of metaphore and stuff and must figure out what his totem is trying to say.

Mostly, if giving the ally the same flavor as the shawman would be good for the game and add some interesting feel to it, then go for it.
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