 The Emperor's New Bullets?, Even Emperors gotta shoot people... |
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 Mar 9 2005, 09:27 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093  |
Not necessarily, no. But there's nothing canon saying the food created is bland because magic can't make flavors either (I know, I know, I can't argue that I'm right because it doesn't say I'm not in canon, I'm putting forward a hypothesis here on WHY the food is bland, not saying this is it for sure). Normally, the food has to have molocules for it to exist physically, otherwise you couldn't eat it (making it an illusion of food). Even a master chef doesn't know how the molocules are put together to create the taste sensations he's capable of. He just knows the ingredients that already have those molocules in them. Therefore a master chef mage casting create food would make a really good looking meal that would taste as soyloafy as the random lazy-assed mage who doesn't know how to toast bagels properly and relies on the spell and the local McWhatever's for sustenance. The spell creates a foodstuff that is edible, looks right, and has about the right consistency, that's about as far as you can take. So a cooking background skill would be all but useless for creating food with flavor. Knowing how a bullet is put together, on the other hand, would be essential. |
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Mar 9 2005, 09:30 PM
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#27
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Which is introducing a mechanic totally inconsistent with the way magic works in SR. I could see it making significantly more sense if it was related to OR. As it stands Availability is nothing more that market conditions and manufacturing issues. If a corp all of a sudden retires it's brand of EX ammo for a new manufacturer and floods the streets with the old ammo, all of a sudden it gets easier to summon with magic? If a new company stages a shadowrun that makes AV more rare by destroying large quantites of stock then the bullets suddenly get harder to summon, despite the fact that the player might not know anything about that? May as well make the TN related to the day of the month or the color of your underwear, because that's as artificial as availability is for a TN for this sort of thing. |
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Mar 9 2005, 10:15 PM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I can handle the 'per 12 hour' part. That's quite an important bit to leave out of your house rule description though. :D |
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Mar 9 2005, 10:16 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 8-March 05 Member No.: 7,146 |
This might be related
If you want a mage to be able to create a weapon or such, but you don't want him to turn into a factory, you could do what we did with my soul sword spell. My elf mage wanted to be able to create a sword magicly. well, there is all sorts of problems with this, but this is the deal me and the GM worked out (roughly, it was a couple of years ago). I could make the sword, but I made it out of my own essence. two essence made a normal sword, for each two beyound it, it receaved a bonus like a weapon focus. (in fact, I could use it when and agianst astral foes) When I was done with it, I could re absorbe the essence and my essence score and majic score went back to normal. Now casting wonce I made the sword was not a good thing, and If something were to happen to the sword I would want it back (it was made of my essence after all). Perhaps a generic version of the spell, essence weapon. in which you could create any weapon and hand it to others (I would think bullets would dissapear after hitting the target and the essence would return) Also one essence would get you a quantity of bullets |
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Mar 9 2005, 10:25 PM
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#30
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
You are correct, sir! :D |
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Mar 9 2005, 11:20 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
Ick. Interesting idea, but ick all the same. None of my awakened PC's would go for something like that, not a single damned one. Something like that, it weakens you rediculously when using it, and the fact that it can be TAKEN AWAY would make most magicians scrap the idea altogether. Just get a weapon focus, or make a touch-ranged (+1 reach . . . erm no modification to the drain level from either touch or LOS? I don't know how you'd work out reach with spells, but I would do this, or use the reach modifier as a drain targer modifier) sustained spell. Throwing ESSENCE around like this is not something a magician would willingly do. |
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Mar 9 2005, 11:59 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
I actually rather like the original idea, and with proper application wouldn't be too unbalanced. I can't remember what page has the OR table on it, but I like the idea of linking TN to availibility (it's one of the better mechanics I can think of, since Avail numbers in the book tend to remain pretty constant for a particular item), with number of rounds produced = number of successes (I think that 10 per success would defintely be too much). That means the target number for say, AV ammo is 14. So if you're team is pinned down by an armored limo with a MMG mounted on a pop-up turret, and you need some AV rounds bad, the mage might be able to scrape up one in a pinch. (Sammie: "Just one!?!" Mage: "You'd better make that shot count!").
I'm not really sure how to go about doing drain though, because although TN14 for making the bullet sounds about right, but then having to resist 14(etc) for the drain seems a little much. |
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Mar 10 2005, 02:25 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 31-May 02 Member No.: 2,802 |
Making the TN based of availability, now would that be the availability on the object in question in the region that you are casting the spell?or where the spell was made?or where you learned the spell?
Lets say that its based of the availability of the area that you are currently in. That would mean that the intended example of being cut off from your supply routes and needing this object pretty damn useless. availability is all supply and demand certain regions have higher or lower availability for the same object. Then if its where the spell was made/learned then players would set off to find whatever object they want to magically create is easiest to get, and just make the spell there. |
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Mar 10 2005, 02:40 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,400 |
I see no problem with this spell. Nor do I see a problem with Fashion or Nourish. If a player is abusing it... I do this wierd thing as a GM... I STOP THEM. Ya know... I do that kind of thing as GM.
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Mar 10 2005, 02:53 AM
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#35
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
When you don't use GM fiat, and play with a group of friends, all who rotationally GM for the campaign, this may not be possible without group consensus. Something to think about. |
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Mar 10 2005, 04:44 AM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
In that kind of case, you also can't randomly outlaw spells either. The best you can get is "That spell won't ever work right while I GM, and I may randomly cause your created ammo to melt into butter. So be sure to buy up some real lead when it's my turn." |
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Mar 10 2005, 05:06 AM
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#37
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Yup, we don't. :-P We talk about it. Just like the forums, except we don't have people chiming in saying "When I'm GMing, I just outlaw it". :) (Apologies to all who are offended by this statement) |
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Mar 10 2005, 06:00 AM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
The problem is easily solved by using the avail in SR3 (or whatever book the item was first issues in). This avoids all questions of what happens when you travel to Aztlan, or a manufacter floods the market. Drain code will be based on OR. So in my aforementioned scenario, where you really need a AV round, that'll be a casting TN of 14, with a drain code of 5M (I'm calling bullets manufactured low tech because making it a TN 8 seems way too rough). A regular bullet will still be TN 2, Drain 5M which would make the spell useful, but especially for the hard to acquire bullets, it's not going to turn the mage into an ammo factory (if you can make one bullet per success).
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Mar 10 2005, 07:24 AM
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#39
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I'm still wondering how regarding the internal consistency of game logic, IC, how you justify basing the TN based on the availability.
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Mar 10 2005, 07:20 AM
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#40
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The B/R test target number for making ammunition is based on Availability, including the time it takes to make said bullets. |
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Mar 10 2005, 08:06 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Create spells are inconsistant. If you can make something complex like food, then you can make something simple like gold, or orchalium. Badness ensues.
JaronK |
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Mar 10 2005, 08:05 AM
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#42
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I wouldn't call orichalcum simple.
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Mar 10 2005, 08:35 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
It's made of four elements, with some magic to bond them together. Compare that to the sheer number of complex molecules in your average bit of food.
JaronK |
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Mar 10 2005, 08:37 AM
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#44
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Isn't it still normally described as a "metallurgist's nightmare" most of the time? I always thought there was a vague sort of should not be about it.
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Mar 10 2005, 08:46 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
The "should not" is that it's inhearently magical. As a result, while I imagine it's very complex to try to create with chemistry, it's not so bad with magic.
But even if you debate the Orchalium, Gold is still far more simple than bread. JaronK |
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Mar 10 2005, 09:23 AM
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#46
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, yeah. Gold, silver, platinum. In a way, you could argue any of the "noble" elements would be fairly easy to create (and those are generally the expensive ones, anyhow).
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Mar 10 2005, 09:24 AM
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#47
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Spiritually, there are many myths about food and water that are embedded in the human consciousness and all human cultures. Food and water, the elements of sustenance, emotionally resonate between all humans, all cultures, all societies. Thus, an astral template to create food wouldn't necessarily be a difficult thing, since it hinges on the well-engrained belief systems already in place. That's the metaphysical explanation. The game mechanic explanation is simply that food and water are pretty inconsequential in terms of affecting play, and the alternatives (the Health spell Nutrition) have far less drain and much better results. As far as "de novo" creation, I can see water being pretty easily condensed out of air and the ground. The whole Moses striking the rock and water pouring forth also comes to mind... maybe it's simply an interpretive dowsing spell that leads one to a source of water. Food is a bit harder to imagine, but most food (other than preservatives) are simple carbon/hydrogen/oxygen chains. |
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Mar 10 2005, 09:39 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Why not apply a "sunset clause" to such spells, causing their product to fade into nonexistence after the next sunrise or sunset?
I know there's nothing in that that's necessarily in keeping with SR canon spell-creation mechanics...but it does fit with mythical ideas about food and magic, and fool's gold...(at least in terms of Celtic myth) EG: In some Irish and British fairy stories magicians and similar "fey" things can conjure food from nothing...but it's not necessarily all that nourishing...and they can produce gold from the air, but it turns to dross or leaves when the sun next rises. (BTW for an idea of the kind of fairy stories I'm talking about, have a look at the novel "Jonathan Strange & Mr Norell". These are not your Victorian pixies...) |
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Mar 10 2005, 10:19 AM
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#49
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Or "manna" from Heaven, in Biblical accounts or the Israelites wandering the desert. The only day that it can be stored for more than one day is the day before the Sabbath, which may have been a retcon, for all I know.
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 Mar 10 2005, 10:30 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Indeed. (strokes chin knowingly.) :rotate:
The only problem with having magically created stuff disappear is of course the magic bullet. There it is folks. We know how the IEs managed to kill Kennedy. |
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