 sustain focus, can it sustain any spell?, need some book ninja fu |
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 Mar 14 2005, 04:47 AM
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#51
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
By the book, a sustaining focus only sustains a spell.
Does the caster of a sustained spell have control over it after he casts the spell? There is nothing in canon that says that he does, apart from the fact that he can stop the spell by ceasing the sustaining. However, he is in control of abilities that the spell grants him. If he casts Phantasm, he has the ability to create illusions. If he casts Levitate, he can lift an object and move it around. If he casts Control Thoughts, he seizes control of a mind. However, to do things with the abilities granted by the sustained spell, is another matter. |
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Mar 14 2005, 04:51 AM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
The book ninja has spoken.
[ Spoiler ]
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Mar 14 2005, 04:47 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Poor team, all dead of asphyxiation, with grenades going off halfway between them and the ground... I mean... 5 seconds.. that's what final displacement when dropped of what? 60m, give or take? So.. around the limits of heavy pistol extreme range.. out of range for the light ones..., just long range for smgs, and medium for assualt rifles..short for rifles... extreme for shotguns.... Poor team, they can't even dodge the counterfire (since the MAGE is controlling the spell, not them) Shouldn't be that hard to keep a group of people moving in the same direction though. No harder then drawing lines with a fistful of pencils at least. As for the 'reasonable argument' comment... Assuming, of course, that you simply are not reading the posts about it, then you should. If, however, you are reading those posts, then why are they not reasonable? There are explanations posted, if you do not accept them, then refute them. Otherwise, by virtue of NOT BEING DEBATED, they must be accepted as reasonable. Edit: Asphyxiation is based upon the team being high enough to be out of range of gunfire, and is an exaggeration - the 1km that would put them out of range of a sniper rifle is not enough that they would be unable to breathe. Likewise, I may be slightly off on the displacement calculation. It's been a while since I did the work with the formulai. |
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Mar 14 2005, 05:04 AM
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#54
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
For example, if he chooses to levitate something to some place, it is an action that does not require him to expand any Free, Simple or Complex action much like Movement does not require you to expand any Free, Simple or Complex action. However, if he is using levitate to perform a ballet dance in mid-air. Then he is using a Use Skill complex action. Likewise, for directing an illusionary dance, he is also using a Use Skill complex action. Hope this clears things up.
How can you be sure that your team-mates are out of gunshot range? How do you maneuver your team-mates? What skill is that? Please expend a complex action and roll your Small Unit Tactics Knowledge skill(perfectly canon) please. |
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Mar 14 2005, 06:18 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Yes there is. The part that says the caster has control over the spell he casts. I mean come on, the book says the caster has control, in black and white. Sustaining foci don't say anything about changing that. JaronK |
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Mar 14 2005, 06:39 AM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Gee, who'd think that a potent piece of magic astrally welded onto your aura would give you an advantage over somebody who didn't have one?
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Mar 14 2005, 06:43 AM
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#57
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
It would be nice if you had a quote. |
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Mar 14 2005, 08:00 AM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
It's not a book quote, but it's a quote I support none the less. A Sustaining Focus lets you use the spell, without the sustaining modifiers. That's what you pay for, and I see no problem with that being what you get. Out of curiosity, say you pull a sustaining focus off a recently deceased mage, how do you figure out what spell it's set to sustain? Or does it not matter, since you're going to have to bond it before you can use it anyway, and then you can reset it to any spell you like? |
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Mar 14 2005, 08:20 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Toturi... the passage in the rulebook that says the caster has control of a spell has already been quoted in this thread. Unless sustaining foci say anything about changing who has control of a spell, that statement still stands. Or are you now claiming that the caster of a spell doesn't have control of a spell he casts and sustains himself? Because if sustaining foci don't change who has control, then the person in control of a spell cast into a sustaining focus is the same as the person who casts in normally.
JaronK |
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Mar 14 2005, 08:25 AM
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#60
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
This is a bit of a misleading statement. It never says you get to use the spell, it says it sustains the spell. That may seem like a bit of semantic bickering, but the implications for this discussion are important.
The book makes no disctinction either way, it's a GM call. Incidentally, I allow any spell to be thrown into a spell lock up to the force of the lock, the spell doesnt have to be chosen when the lock is bonded. I don't however allow the spell to be directly controlled if in a spell lock. This was actually my player's ideas. They thought it made more sense that way. |
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Mar 14 2005, 08:51 AM
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#61
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
A mage needs LOS to control what he is levitating. If he is looking at a calculus textbook he isn't looking at where his flying ballerinas are going. Therefore, they are just going to float in place. A mage can't just hand off levitate foci like he would invisibility foci. The spell has to be controlled as well as sustained and controlling it requires Line of Sight. That alone is limitation enough. It has been pointed out that the sustaining focus is connected to its owner astrally. He still has a direct link to the spell. |
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Mar 14 2005, 12:16 PM
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#62
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It really wouldn't matter, because when you pay the Karma to bond the Focus, you set the specific spell it can sustain. I don't believe you could just pick up and use that Sec-Mage's Force 1 Increase Reflexes 3 Sustaining Focus without first bonding it yourself. |
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Mar 14 2005, 12:44 PM
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#63
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I can't find the quote you are refering to, either in this thread or in any of the books. Please do quote if you can find it. Unless the books specifically state that the caster of a spell has control of the spell, all I can find are instances that the caster of the spell is required to target certain things or the spell gives certain abilities to the caster. I've not seen control as in "the controller of a spell" or "control of a spell" anywhere in the rulebooks. Baring a quote, I would say that the caster of a sustained spell is never in "control" of the spell. The spell enables him to do certain things, or gives him certain abilities. Either he sustains the spell or the focus sustains it for him, it makes no difference. |
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Mar 14 2005, 12:58 PM
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#64
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's the real point. It makes no difference whether the mage is sustaining the spell himself, or using a Focus. The spell still acts in the manner that the mage desires. |
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Mar 14 2005, 02:31 PM
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#65
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Wow, so it took you all night to come back to the statement I made back on page 2? :P
:D |
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Mar 14 2005, 02:51 PM
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#66
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Who is it you are talking about? I have maintained my position from my very first post on this subject.
Besides, this is still page 1! :P |
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Mar 14 2005, 02:56 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
What? Mine is on page 3! Burn him, he's a witch! JaronK |
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Mar 14 2005, 02:58 PM
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#68
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Bah! Silly people that view the Forum on the '30 posts per page' setting. :eek: :P
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Mar 14 2005, 03:53 PM
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#69
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Just saying it's good to have more people agreeing with me. I was feeling kinda beseiged here. :) |
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Mar 14 2005, 04:38 PM
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#70
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Theres your quote toturi. Bookninja title revoked! |
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Mar 14 2005, 05:17 PM
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#71
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I think control is given to the caster even if using a sustaining focus. That thing about the +2 sustaining mod being required to control spells is bull. You donīt get a tn mod to use the spell the mod comes from sustaining, do you? Then you can concentrate on using it all you like without mod, and then simply stop concentrating on it when doing something else, all thanks to that trusty focus. I also disagree with the thing said on first page, were the spell was passed between the caster and the focus. No, the spell is sustained by the focus, controled by the caster.
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Mar 14 2005, 11:03 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
@Tarantula: Toturi may keep the "bookninja" title. Where does it say who is "controlling" the spell. Toturi's POV is accurate in saying that the spell (not needing control) grants telekinetic abilities to the caster. The caster controls the abilities, not necessarily the spell. Find a reference to controlling the spell and you will have won.
This post has been edited by Da9iel: Mar 14 2005, 11:04 PM |
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Mar 14 2005, 11:19 PM
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#73
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
The whole point is that there is no such thing as "controlling" the spell itself. It's not only irrelevant to the discussion, but is little more than a piece of disctacting semantics. It is in fact impossible to "control" a spell; such a description would indicate that it's possible to change meta-properties of the spell itself on-the-fly, such as Force or number of net successes or indeed any property of the spell itself, which canon does not let you do. So forget about, "controlling the spell;" it's nothing more than a fool's game of semantics that is nowhere at all mentioned in canon whatsoever.
The only things you can in fact control about a spell is 1) who/what maintains the spell, which presumably means who/what maintains the mana flow/web/insert-fluff-here that keeps the spell going, and 2) who/what controlls the spell's effects. Note that these are not necessarily the same person/thing. For example, the spell Clairvoyance can be cast on a target, who then gets the benefits of the spell, which includes control over the spell's effect of viewing objects from a distance. The target can't take over maintaining the spell, nor can the caster take over the sense granted to the target, except in the degenerate case that they are the same person (caster casting Clairvoyance on himself). So let's look at the issues in a bit more detail. 1) is pretty obvious: either a caster can maintain the spell himself, forcing a +1/+2 TN modifier for doing so; or he can pass it off to a sustaining focus, give it to/take it back from an elemental, or bind it to an elemental, etc. The answer to 2) is also obvious if you look at the individual spell's description: either noone has control over the spell's granted abilities/effects (Armor spell, etc); the target gets control over the abilities/effects (most enhanced-sense Detection spells like Clairvoyance); or the caster gets control over the abilities/effects (most Manipulation spells like Levitate). Note, again, that who gets control over the spell's effects is dependent on the spell, and not--I repeat, NOT--on who or what is maintaining the spell. Thus, a mage can cast a Levitate spell, use a sustaining focus to maintain the spell, and freely levitate whatever the sustaining focus is maintaining the spell on. This is because, although the focus is maintaining the spell, the spell description gives the caster control over the spell's effects. Is that clear enough, or do I need to talk more slowly? |
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Mar 14 2005, 11:31 PM
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#74
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Oh, and you want quotes? Here:
In other words, RTFM. :P |
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Mar 14 2005, 11:34 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
That was the quote I meant earlier. The caster moves the object about, not the sustainer. JaronK |
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