 New border in SR4 |
  |
 Mar 16 2005, 02:42 AM
Post
#1
|
|||
|
Tilting at Windmills  Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388  |
The simple answer? I'm a Texan, and it offends my pride. I find it aesthetically unpleasant, too. There's really not much more to it than that. I also found much of the partitioning of the old USA a little hard to believe, and the Aztlan invasion of Texas was just a part of it. If I could remake any piece of canon in the game, it would be how the NAN came about. The end result might be largely the same, but the journey would be different (though we would have completely avoided the whole CalFree fiasco, I think). I can't change that, any more than I can undo the in-game invasion of Texas by Aztlan...but I can push for a series of events that allows Aztlan to stay around while at the same time getting the hell out of Texas. |
||
 |
 
|
||
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 16 2005, 02:54 AM
Post
#2
|
|
Guests |
This is going to be interesting.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 02:53 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I did mention somewhere in here that I'm a cranky bastard sometimes, didn't I?
To be honest, CD, I don't think I have anything that'll convince you. It is just a pride thing with me, and I don't deny it. I also don't expect to win this argument with Rob, either; I've been pitching it at SR line developers for a number of years now, and it's gotten nowhere. It's my own personal windmill (along with PC heights and weights, where I think I have a better chance of actually effecting change), and I intend to tilt at it for as long as I can keep up my own interest. It is, however, the reason I introduced the Azziewatch data haven and the Sons of the Alamo. I need someone to tilt at the windmills with me. We might not win, but we're going to fight anyway. (If I ever get off my ass and work on some of the fiction I have outlined, I'll be making some use of some of this material, too, but I think holding your breath would be contraindicated.) If some of the GMs out there want to fight that fight with me, I feel happy to have provided some tools. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 02:58 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
I'm not entirely sure that's a good enough reason. Just because you don't like it? Okay, I don't like that Canada merged with the US and lost a good chunk of itself in the process. That's not even logical with the way Canada's politics work. We'd have kept most of the praries, BC, and hell, most of the Territories too (Quebec's a different story). That would, actually be the only reason the US would really want to merge with Canada, the vast amount of natural resources we have. The way it is now, the US picked up fifteen million people and a big, red maple leaf in the merger, and lost the whole of the south. Bad deal all around, really.
But that's what happened in the game, and we can only extrapolate that things went from bad to shit-poor sometime in the early 21st century in the SR universe, making such a ludicrous land giveaway and unprofitable merger acceptable to Canada (or even the US). The best thing Canada did for the US when they merged was introduce the concept of a whole slew of parties into what had once been a 2 party system. This is aesthetically unpleasing to me and offensive to my pride, as a Canadian, that we should allow our nation to be reduced so greatly. I'm not even really interested in seeing the UCAS take back that land in SR, it's a different world, with different borders, and a lot of things are radically, inalterably different from our world now. That's one of the things I like about SR. Why should they change the Texas/Aztlan border? The azzies got that land through force of arms, they're bloody well going to work to keep it, and it's going to take significantly more than Texas can offer to shift them. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:07 AM
Post
#5
|
|||||
|
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I didn't exactly write the Texas/Aztlan dispute; that was there since the start of things. I did write a couple of things centered around them, though, as mentioned above. The Azziewatch crew can be found in Target: Matrix and a little bit about the Sons of the Alamo can be found in Year of the Comet. I thank you for your vote of confidence. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:09 AM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Never said it was. Don't read more into things than I put there. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:03 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
I did not read anything more into your statement than was there, I simply stated my own beleif that your reasons are not, in my opinion, good enough to warrant a change. Whether you claimed they were or not is irrelevant to said opinion. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:04 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I won't go over what Crimson laid out in the other thread, but I'm coming for that point of view.
The only thing I can see happening is a peace deal between the CAS and Aztlan where the land dispute is ended. However, there would have to be something in it for the Azzies. Something big. Really the only reason the CAS is against Aztlan is the Texas situation, right? So what could the CAS give Aztlan?
Stop the pirates in the Caribbean (which hurt both nations' trade and tourism). End the military agreements with the PCC. Stopping aid to the Yucatan. A return of all spies and handing over terrorists, stopping paramilitary groups. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:13 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I happen to think the entire history regarding Calfree is a load of trash, and I'm not alone in this. It basically portrays my home state (and in particular my home city of LA) as a mix of half-aware hippies and yuppies with their heads so far up their own anuses that they didn't notice and were incapable of reacting at all to any of half a dozen armies slowly gathering at its borders. I doubt any of it's going to change, though (though Saito had damn well better be dead by 2070! :D); I wouldn't really expect it to.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:15 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 313 |
But then Kane would have to stop blowing shit up. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:22 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Personally, I'd like to see Texas get completely taken over, but that's just me.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:26 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
Kick the Azzies out of Texas! Count me in as a second for Patrick Goodman's idea.
No way would Texas allow Aztlaners to keep part of their soverign soil forever... |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 03:42 AM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
The Ghost in our Machine Group: Retired Admins Posts: 166 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Unlisted Datastore Member No.: 52 |
You mean they aren't? :eek: I couldn't help myself. Bad Neuron Basher, bad bad. :oops: |
||
|
|
|
||
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 16 2005, 04:02 AM
Post
#14
|
||
|
Guests |
That's fine. But I like to think that if I can remain dispassionate about my own dislike for Texans and the fact that I despise Aztlan just as much for being worse to its people than Mexico is, and using them as fodder for, well, evil agendas, then I will have to see an argument that isn't predicated on personal bias. Nothing is absolute, and I know that if a country really wants to it will find a way to get into a war. But a war between the CAS and Aztlan, which is the only way I see this happening, would cripple them both. But then again, this is as good a time as any for a deus ex machina move. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 04:15 AM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Anyone want to link the original pissing match so I can follow along?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 04:27 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
|
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 16 2005, 04:47 AM
Post
#17
|
||
|
Guests |
hahaha That's so far from what this is. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 04:51 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
The problem, as I see it, is that there really is no good way to balkanize the U.S. I've seen it done a couple different ways, and someone always ends up calling shenanigans. I just shrug and don't let myself get worked up over it.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 04:47 AM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Really? It seems like that is exactly what this entire forum is about. Its all "SR4 is the SECOND COMING," or "SR4 is the ANTICHRIST." What the fuck? It happend. We'll deal. Some people are furious. Some people are not. Deal. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 16 2005, 05:17 AM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
What pissing match? Crimsondude and I are hardly engaged in a pissing match. While we tend to disagree on a number of things regarding Shadowrun and its rules and its world, the fact is that he and I have always (at least I think always) managed to keep it civil. In this case, we're disagreeing on a fairly major thing for both of us. We've disagreed before, and we will again, on this subject even though the dispassionate and rational side of me knows that he's right. As a writer, I know he's right, and I believe his reasoning to be sound. It's just not a rational subject for me. And if I want to get my way, I had better come up with a damn good rationale to make it work. But this is hardly a pissing match. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 05:18 AM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
WTF? That's not what this is about at all. This isn't even about a fouth edition, rather whether Texas can free its lost territory in some "logical" or at least rationalized way. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 16 2005, 05:17 AM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Noted. To both of you.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 05:24 AM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Rationale: Something along the lines of a NATO like treaty between UCAS and CAS, resonable considering the two countries have more in common than not. This really spooks the Azzies into "securing their border" UCAS comes into it on CAS's side. The other NAN's are freaked (especially Souix), they come in on Azzie's side. CFS is a late commer on the UCAS/CAS side after a pre-emptive move on them by the NANs. Tir Taingire stays neutral, Seattle, in effect becomes it's own city state. It's the american import of euro-wars and Ares laughs all the way to the bank.
In the end, the CAS/UCAS mostly win and get some land. Maybe even re-unify. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 05:39 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
The NAN isn't likely to side with the Azzies... like ever. Not only would Pueblo piss itself over losing the CAS support, the rest of the NAN would rather have the UCAS looking at Aztlan than themselves. And the CFS would have to solve several small problems before it could do anything like support a war.
Besides, Aztlan is a superpower with nukes and stealth bombers, submarines, and so on. A war wouldn't happen in a pleasant way. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 16 2005, 05:40 AM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Not saying it would be pleasent. It's a war, pretty much the definition of un-pleasent.
As for the NAN's supporting the Azzies, they were allied in the past. I was just positing that the Souix would be more concerned with the UCAS (whom they've been having a sort of cold war with) than the Azzies. Hmm... Now that you mention it it would be more likley that the North American Treaty Organization would spook the Souix into attacking UCAS and the Azzies would just be attacking the CAS while they were preoccupied helping the neighbors to the north. The rest could stay the same though. It really could fall out any number of ways and still be plausible in light of how wars have started historically. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 27th April 2024 - 02:38 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.