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> Who's hoping for new autofire rules?, Suppressive or Searching as default?
RunnerPaul
post Mar 16 2005, 07:32 PM
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As far as autofire rules go, the core mechanic in SR3 is... a less than optimal aproximation of what autofire should be.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if what's the core mechanic becomes the Optional Rule, replaced by some variation of the Suppressive Fire or the Searching Fire rules as the new default.

For all we know the game's already 90% written, but hey, wishful thinking makes for a nice idle past time.

Who else wants to see autofire revamped?
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Toa
post Mar 16 2005, 07:26 PM
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Couldn't hurt.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 16 2005, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Who else wants to see autofire revamped?

I sure don't. :|
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mfb
post Mar 16 2005, 07:40 PM
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i do. can't stand the autofire rules. something like my bullet-per-success rule'd be nice, but i'm probably biased.
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Charon
post Mar 16 2005, 07:46 PM
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Anything to empty those clips faster is good.

SR by nature is surprisingly bullet efficient. Not a lot of bullets get wasted, even on autofire.
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craigpierce
post Mar 21 2005, 05:59 PM
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i would like to see the auto-fire rules revised, but i'll live if they don't do it.

i know my friends and i were discussing making a homerule for how AF works, and i like what we had laid out, but i've forgoten by now (i moved away from them and haven't played in about a year).

really i think they just need a little tweaking from what they are now.
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Nikoli
post Mar 21 2005, 06:03 PM
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Well, one of the things that makes it so bullet efficient is the smart-gun/link. No wasted bullets walking the arc from target to target. Though i don't recall seeing good rules on innocent bystanders being hit (though, if your good, there aren't any bystanders at all, innocent or otherwise)
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mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 07:59 PM
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They could probably make it slightly better by adding more wasted ammo (without smartlink at least) and more destruction. But it can not, must not become more complex. Shadowrun is one of the few games involving modern fire arms where it´s not significantly more complex to fire full auto than it is to fire one shot. And that´s the way I like it.
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RunnerPaul
post Mar 21 2005, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
Shadowrun is one of the few games involving modern fire arms where it´s not significantly more complex to fire full auto than it is to fire one shot. And that´s the way I like it.

I agree there. We don't need something more complex.
I just think it's a good time to rethink having the "All or Nothing" approach be the core standard. Right now you're firing a bunch of rounds, and either they all slam into the target or none of them do, under the core book's rule. I'd prefer a system based on the assumption that you're firing a bunch of rounds in an attempt to get some of them to hit. At least 1-3, more if you're really good or have decent recoil compensation.
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FrostyNSO
post Mar 21 2005, 11:14 PM
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Our way was complicated (so sucks).

Say you fire a 6 round burst with your AK97 at base target number 4. The target for the first bullet is 4, second is 5, third is 6, so on...

You roll the dice once: We'll say a skill of 4.

You get 02 05 04 03.

We take the highest number you rolled, which in this case is 5, as the cutoff. Any bullets that pushed the target to 6 or above (in this case, the last 4 bullets) miss.

So what our shooter scores is 2 bullets hitting their mark. Incidentally, we scored 2 successes. (1 on the target 4, 1 on target 5 *note: no die gets counted twice btw)

Instead of an all or nothing code of 13D (we don't count the first bullet for increasing power), we have essentially a 2 round burst doing 9S (with the two successes).

Presto! Way too compicated! But we like it. Still there are plenty here that will say it sucks, but gimme a break, we had to come up with something.
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Arethusa
post Mar 21 2005, 11:36 PM
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It's not very complicated at all, and it's one the better houserules I've seen here (been around for a little while, far as I know). I've personally not been fond of it because of what it does with staging (which, in a lot of cases, makes firing a single shot far too superior and reliable). That, and it really, really does not work well with capped recoil and realistic rates of fire.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 21 2005, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (Charon)
Anything to empty those clips faster is good.

SR by nature is surprisingly bullet efficient. Not a lot of bullets get wasted, even on autofire.

It's funny, in SR1, you could shoot up to your skill+1 bursts (capped at 7) per phase.
That means you could have cranked out 63-rounds across a 3-phase Combat Turn!

Oh how times have changed!
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RunnerPaul
post Mar 22 2005, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
That means you could have cranked out 63-rounds across a 3-phase Combat Turn!

Rolling a seperate success test for each of those 63 rounds.

QUOTE
Oh how times have changed!

I agree.
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Tziluthi
post Mar 22 2005, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Our way was complicated (so sucks).

Say you fire a 6 round burst with your AK97 at base target number 4. The target for the first bullet is 4, second is 5, third is 6, so on...

You roll the dice once: We'll say a skill of 4.

You get 02 05 04 03.

We take the highest number you rolled, which in this case is 5, as the cutoff. Any bullets that pushed the target to 6 or above (in this case, the last 4 bullets) miss.

I was thinking along the same lines. I don't think it's so complicated, but I guess it's a little more complex than the current rule, and then you'd also have to recalculate how much damage you did in consideration of how many rounds didn't hit.
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Critias
post Mar 22 2005, 05:16 AM
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It also carries with it the stigma of being -- more or less -- an Open Test. I proposed rules like that about five years ago, and got mixed results/feelings. I like that it's no longer all or nothing, but people hate their Open Tests.
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FrostyNSO
post Mar 22 2005, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (Critias)
It also carries with it the stigma of being -- more or less -- an Open Test. I proposed rules like that about five years ago, and got mixed results/feelings. I like that it's no longer all or nothing, but people hate their Open Tests.

How is it an open test? You're not rolling to determine how many shots your firing, you're hitting a target to determine how many of those shots hit.

How is it any different from the system now, where 1 freak die determines that your whole +8 recoil burst hit?
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Critias
post Mar 22 2005, 06:36 AM
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It's just a form of Open Test, because your highest die determines how many rounds hit. That's, y'know, what's called an Open Test. High die counts, it sets the bar for how many shots hit, it's the cut-off point (however you want to phrase it).

I'm not saying I don't like it -- like I said, I came up with a rule like that myself and have been using it in the games I run for about five years now -- I'm just saying some people don't.
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FrostyNSO
post Mar 22 2005, 08:44 AM
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I guess I can understand your reasoning on that :P
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CradleWorm
post Mar 22 2005, 04:26 PM
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Just use the standard damage code and add an extra die for each round of automatic fire.

Recoil still adds to the target number for the test as normal.

How much simpler do you want it?
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GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 22 2005, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Mar 21 2005, 06:37 PM)
That means you could have cranked out 63-rounds across a 3-phase Combat Turn!

Rolling a seperate success test for each of those 63 rounds.

In the context of SR1:

I know it's been a while, but I though each 3 round burst only added +1 to the power level of the attack? I don't recall it requiring a seperate skill roll for each bullet.
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CradleWorm
post Mar 22 2005, 06:57 PM
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As it stands in SR3...

Each bullet fired during automatic fire (including the first) adds 1 to the power of the attack. (Makes you wonder why people dont do 1 round automatic fire instead of single shot)

Each three bullets fired during automatic fire (including the first) adds 1 to the damage level of the attack.

Each round fired during an automatic fire attack (including the first) adds 1 to the recoil modifier of the attack.

The maximum damage level is still D... extra levels do not apply twords the optional deadlier over damage rule. (Debate that one elsewhere)
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Arethusa
post Mar 22 2005, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (CradleWorm)
(Makes you wonder why people dont do 1 round automatic fire instead of single shot)

Because it takes a Complex Action instead of a Simple Action and gives you a +1 TN?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 22 2005, 06:58 PM
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Another possible reason is that "At least three rounds must be fired in each burst." (sr3.115)
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Bigity
post Mar 22 2005, 08:27 PM
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If it requires three rounds, then why the rules for a short burst?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 22 2005, 08:35 PM
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Because the paragraph I quoted above continues: "If the belt or [magazine] runs short, see Short Bursts, above."
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