 System Crash and AI |
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 Mar 18 2005, 06:53 PM
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#36
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874  |
She's a very powerfull omnipotent "Duck". And Hey Crimson what's wrong with Stephen Kenson?
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Mar 18 2005, 07:16 PM
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#37
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Christ. What isn't? |
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Mar 18 2005, 07:26 PM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
he has an amazing talent for writing poorly-worded, confusing rules--exactly what SR doesn't need. he tends to make magic more touchy-feely and less logical; i think it should be more balanced. he's pushed otaku towards being Awakened, which is an idea i personally despise.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:35 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874 |
I dunno I kind of dig that. I think too often science tends to focus on the logic and the postivistic rationale taking all the wonder and mystery out of things. I kind of like that approach and think it adds something positive to the game.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:32 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think touchy-feely should be the only answer, though. i think it takes something away from the game if you disallow a more logical approach. i think both should work, in other words, not just one or the other.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:33 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874 |
That's true. I guess it gets into the different traditions.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:45 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Kryton: Right, that's what I mean regarding the matrix failure -- it's not going to be a total end-of-civilization thing, like the old Cold War model of after-the-bomb. But, like you say, more analogous to the fall of the Iron Curtain or the Stock Market Crash of '29 in far-reaching effects.
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Mar 18 2005, 07:59 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874 |
Ultimately we're going to see some form of literary "Deus Ex Machina".
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 18 2005, 09:17 PM
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#44
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Guests |
Well, in case you haven't noticed by now, I put a very high premium on things like logic and reason. As for what's wrong with Kenson, let me sum it up in the writing mantra of my mentor (someone who's work for the last 32 years, and counting, has absolutely depended upon his writing skills): You need to be clear, concise, and correct. It's the same mantra apply to everything I write. Kenson has consistently failed on all three points repeatedly ever since he wrote Awakenings. His writing is vague, contradictory, illogical, incoherent, and unreadable. It is bad enough with fiction, but it is absolutely imperative that when you write out rules that people have to follow that you do not fail to be clear. His writing is overly drawn out, wordy, and does not flow. Finally, he has in his fiction, and don't even get me started on his novels, been incorrect when using rules which he wrote himself. His ideas are awful, and his grasp of factual issues is tepid at best. References to the Washington, D.C. area, the government, and issues of common sense have routinely been wrong. After a while, it becomes incredibly annoying. It's also become personally annoying that he picks his favorite characters and locations and runs them into the ground. Show some creativity for God's sakes. And this person has been responsible for most of the magical rules for 3e, and gave us such gems as "Passing through Earth" and a myriad of hopelessly confusing and vague rules for magic. The only good, ever, to come from anything he wrote was that the Enhanced Centering power from the two Grimoires became a metamagic. That's it. |
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Mar 18 2005, 09:22 PM
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#45
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Untrue. We've gotten a few laughs out of some of his other stuff. Pitiful, staving-off-the-tears laughs, but laughs all the same. |
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Mar 18 2005, 10:31 PM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Wow. Lots of hate for Steve Kenson.
Hey, Steve, if you reading this, I think Mutant & Mastermind rocks! |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 18 2005, 10:28 PM
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#47
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Guests |
OH, my utter contempt for Kenson doesn't let the other people involved in, say, MitS off the hook.
What amazes me is not that it had to be edited and approved by, natch, Mike. But that apparently none of the 89(!) playtesters--including more than a few people around here--either didn't catch these problems in playtesting, or were ignored. And I don't know which is worse. |
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Mar 19 2005, 01:56 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Well, in SOTA 2064, it states that winternight wants to hit the matrix so hard that it would make the crash of '29 look like system burp.. Or something like that.
So,I think both winter night doing something bad,and matrix falling are not too far out in the left feild. |
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Mar 19 2005, 02:19 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 18-March 05 Member No.: 7,189 |
Itīs the Horrors. Belive me! ;-)
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Mar 20 2005, 09:47 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
The one thing I really disagree with, from Kenson's perspective, is that academic hermetics (i.e. the ones that teach classes, develop thaumaturgical theses using a standardized thaumaturgic nomenclature, and actually try to create reproducable results) are "wrong" but shamans, and hermetics with a more holistic/magic-is-magic philosophy (i.e. Talon) are "right". I think both should be given equal precedence and viability.
It even pervades shadowtalk. The Shadowtalk in some magic-related SR3 efforts can usually be abstracted to this: [game-related in-character data] [hermetic poster describing some logical way of looking at it, tha sounds pretty damned absurd] [shaman describing it correctly in less logical terms, or simply declaring once and for all that hermetics "just don't get it"] Really annoying. Am I so wrong for liking magic that can be researched without contacting ancestors with magical Awakened plants, chanting "klatuu verata nicto" six times, and smearing myself in sap and dancing sky-clad? |
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Mar 20 2005, 10:54 PM
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#51
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
I agree, the whole issue with favouring shamanistic/pagan/holistioc approaches to magic (and fringe religion) over the alchemical/paranaturalist scientist approach (and established, large, especially monotheist religions - you don't have to like them, but acknowledgeing their existence would be great!) has ticked me off too.
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Mar 20 2005, 11:15 PM
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#52
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
All three are in MitS, and individually show up in several other places (Threats 2, SotA64, SoE). |
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Mar 20 2005, 11:22 PM
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#53
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, not in great detail, just generally. Also, while SOTA expanded the hermetics nicely, I still kind of feel the shamanic, intuitive side of magic is a bit over-emphathised in SR.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 20 2005, 11:24 PM
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#54
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Guests |
Yes, but those three you named came out how long since SR began? Until recently, they paid minor lip service to religion and magic. To be fair, I can only imagine the reasons why it was a good idea for FASA to not discuss religion and magic together for the longest time. But after a decade, it's a safe bet that they could discuss it without some of the backlash they would have faced back in 1989.
And this favoritism is another indication of why I dislike his writing style. I much prefer an author who can actually write about something they personally don't like without coming off judgmentally. Or, to put it another way: When you write about somebody you hate, write about them with love..." -- Hubert Selby, Jr. (now there's an author). |
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Mar 20 2005, 11:20 PM
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#55
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I completely agree. There should be more on the subject of angels, demons and priestly magic. They could easily cut down on the amount of shamanic traditions to make room. And somehow I suspect we will see a lot of the stuff from the SotA books in the main 4:th ed book, so that might not be a long shot.
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Mar 20 2005, 11:22 PM
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#56
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Magic cannot exist without intuitive, the leap of faith. Even the hermetics admit that. Science alone is not enough: period. And who would want them to screw up the major religions like they did the few shamanic traditions they mention? Seriously, hermetic magic is the smallest fraction of real world magical traditions; the fact it gets so much attention is evidence that the game is geared to a Western audience. And angels and demons? Fuck no. Shadowrun cannot answer questions about religion. Just like that crap Audun mentions about all different types of nature spirits and breaking it down. Angles and demons are just elementals, nymphs and river horses are river spirits. |
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Mar 20 2005, 11:43 PM
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#57
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Fine. But these things should be clearly stated and handled in the same way as shamanic traditions, and the catholic church should be a major player when it comes to things magical. It has so much potential to be totally menacing in fiction.
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Mar 20 2005, 11:47 PM
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#58
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I thought Threats 2 and SoE did a pretty good job brinning the RCC up to, if not major, at least player status with great potential for more. |
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Mar 21 2005, 12:21 AM
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#59
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Yes they did. Now letīs see that being developed in the new edition. Giving world religions a place in the core magic system. Letīs take this discussion to the new thread I created, instead of taking this one of track.
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 Mar 21 2005, 12:38 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
[Snip Crimsondudestuff]
The interesting thing about SR is, if you go into the nitty gritty of its cosmology etc...it does assume something like the existence of the soul... Consciousness, according to SR is a weird phenomenon. IE: You can have an AI, such as Deus, whose intelligence and self awareness is entirely dependent upon physical/informational processes in the physical world. In theory, you could dissect Deus' code and work out how he works. But then, you have spirits, some of which are clearly intelligent and self-aware (Free Spirits come to mind). They don't have any "physical" component that fits with our classical understanding of the physical universe. So their consciousness is somehow dependent upon phenomena that we can't describe. And then you have us. If someone damages your brain too much, you die. So, we need to have a brain to live -> therefore also, we need the brain to be self-aware etc. This is supported by SR's cyberware (which, if you think about it, requires a great deal of understanding about how the brain, and indeed the mind work - especially in the case of stuff like psychoactive IC...). But if someone uses a spell (or a critter power) to turn me into a statue, or a rock, or a tree, or a tiny little pebble, I still don't die. Or become brain-damaged. Indeed, I might not even lose consciousness, depending upon the effect of the power in question. So, human consciousness and awareness isn't as dependent upon our physical bodies as it appears to be. OR spells that alter the human body do an awful lot of very, very complex things... And Astral projection raises similar questions... I think about this stuff too much... [Edit]Deus and other AIs' intelligence/awareness might not, in fact, be independent of astral phenomena. I'm just operating on the assumption that it is because the separation of the spiritual and the technological is a kind of "SR Trope".[/Edit] This post has been edited by Demosthenes: Mar 21 2005, 01:15 PM |
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