IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Give monoteism some room in SR4, sufism, kabbala and christian mysticism
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 12:17 AM
Post #1


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



The big monoteistic world religions all have fairly strong factions who are interested in magic. I think we aught to see more actual magical traditions with connections to these religions. It only seems natural.

I am not saying that I would like to break up into more traditions and different types of spirits. I only think that the hermetic side should get a few. Maybe while haltering the galopping shamanic side.

Crimsondude has opened my eyes to Steve Kensonīs appearant disslike of organized religion. When I think about it more than one piece of Shadowrun fiction has had a pathetic christian cult with a powerless leader as a villain. I think that christianety has earned to be a major villain, at least. Better yet would be if there were actually both good and bad religious organizations, just as the case is with shamanic ones.

I donīt belong to any religious tradition myself. But I donīt like that there is such an obvious prejudice built into my favourite game.

<<<edit>>> I know some of the recent books have been trying to solve this problem. That is only a bigger reason why it should be in the main book for next edition.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ancient History
post Mar 21 2005, 12:23 AM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 6,748
Joined: 5-July 02
Member No.: 2,935



I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say Kenson disliked organized religion.

As for large, monotheistic religions having magical factions, both with positive and negative goals, I'd say they've covered that to various extants...there's no master Christian plan with magic, but various Christian groups trying to use magic various ways. The same with the Moslems and the Jews, among others.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Mar 21 2005, 12:19 AM
Post #3


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



Magic and religion exist side by side, not on over the other. One can be a Catholic Eagle shaman or a Hindi hermetic. Personally, I don't think we need more than was in MitS, but I suspect you'll be seeing more and more of it anyway - which I can live with so long as they do more than the monotheistic and include Buddhism, Taoism, and so on.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 12:24 AM
Post #4


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



If we could get rules for christian, jewish etc. magic in the core book, along with meta-variants and other things thatīs supposed to be common place on a worldwide scale, that would make me happy. Streamlining this new edition should mean that you donīt have to own MitS, SotA, Treats 2, Shadowrun Companion and Shadows of Europe to play in Europe.

<<edit>> They can obviously not fit every tradition on earth in the book. So make it generic then, but keep it equal. And tuck the meta-variants in there. Give us a compact look at the whole of the sixth world in the core book.

This should extend beyond monoteism as well. I was thinking about monoteistic religions, but others have been neglected as well. It may be that the problem became apparent first with MitS, and the sulution is to keep it generic...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
audun
post Mar 21 2005, 01:05 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 179
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 381



QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
One can be a Catholic Eagle shaman or a Hindi hermetic.

IMHO that's a wrong decision.
It simply doesn't make sense that a Catholic should adopt Native American (probably more accurately North West American) spiritualism as the major part of his magical approach. Neither does it make sense that a Hindu should adopt some obscure occult tradition of the West rather than his own rich tradition. Well, it does, but then it is in the realm of New Age and street magic.
Steve Kensons and thus the current SR approach is that all magic should be New Agey, leaving very little room for other approaches. I hope they'll move away from it in SR4. Other approaches than the four (shaman, hermetic, voudoun, wu-jen) outlined in current SR would be great, especially for the monoteistic traditions. What annoys me the most is that almost everything in European and Arab traditions is reduced to hermetic elemental magic, though I've already said a lot in this other thread.
To be short, I hope for magic rules that is less D&D and more Hellblazer, though still with it's own Shadowrun twist.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 01:01 AM
Post #6


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



I guess we both have a soft spot for Hellblazer then.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FlakJacket
post Mar 21 2005, 01:24 AM
Post #7


King of the Hobos
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,117
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 127



QUOTE (audun)
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
One can be a Catholic Eagle shaman or a Hindi hermetic.

IMHO that's a wrong decision. It simply doesn't make sense that a Catholic should adopt Native American (probably more accurately North West American) spiritualism as the major part of his magical approach.

So no-one other than the north-west ribes ever worshiped or venerated eagles?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DrJest
post Mar 21 2005, 02:08 AM
Post #8


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,133
Joined: 3-October 04
Member No.: 6,722



I've advocated a shamanic option in religious magical practice before now. Any Judeo-Christian religion could use Archangels in place of totems - I believe one of the SR sourcebooks has already mentioned the Archangel Michael as a form of the Dragonslayer Idol.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Mar 21 2005, 02:22 AM
Post #9


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



I think what Kanada means is you can call a totem anything you want to call it (with your GM's consent), and change the trappings and "look" around, while retaining the basic feel and listed game modifiers of a published Totem. It's the ideal, and the character living up to that ideal, that matters, not what name you use (IC or OOC) for your Totem.

And, well, even if that's not what Kanada means, it's what I'm saying.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Mar 21 2005, 03:24 AM
Post #10





Guests






QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Mar 20 2005, 06:24 PM)
QUOTE (audun)
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
One can be a Catholic Eagle shaman or a Hindi hermetic.

IMHO that's a wrong decision. It simply doesn't make sense that a Catholic should adopt Native American (probably more accurately North West American) spiritualism as the major part of his magical approach.

So no-one other than the north-west ribes ever worshiped or venerated eagles?

Well, I'm a little rusty on my Catholicism, but I don't recall there being veneration of eagles in the Roman Catholic tradition.

If totems pick the shaman--an idea which I consider to be nothing short of nonsense--then it makes no sense for them to pick someone who denies their existence. Even halfway, a particularly devout Catholic, the kind that you'd think would be open to accepting the gift of magic were it to be given to them rather than transferred down genetically, then it would make as much sense that they'd piss away that gift because Satan was tempting them in the form of magical power at the cost of their soul (Since it breaks the First Commandment to worship--which is what adhering to totem strictures is--other deities).

Which is why every mention of "traditionalist" magical pracitioners in the RCC has been as Idol followers and not shamansm, per se. At least Idols can manifest as idealizations of ones' faith (i.e., angels or saints), whereas a Horse is a Horse, unless it's Eagle or Mouse.

That said, it is not beyond the realm of comprehension for someone who happens to be Catholic to follow another magical tradition if that is what manifests and they decide to adhere to it. After all, there are quite a few RL Native Americans who are Catholics, Protestants, or various other sects of Christianity. They can reconcile their faith as they see fit, whether they are Navajo and Catholic/Baptist/Native American Church/etc. If they didn't, we wouldn't have Santeria, Voudoun, or any of the many other bastardized religions which combined Catholicism and African or Native beliefs--the ones which stretch far and wide across the Western Hemisphere.

But it ain't Catholicism.

Whereas a Hindi Hermetic is just fine, because Hermeticism isn't a religious belief. It is, frankly, a science (or should be) taught like Social or Physical Sciences in academic settings in colleges and schools around the world. Being a Hindi Hermetic is the same thing, IMO, to being a Christian Biologist.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RunnerPaul
post Mar 21 2005, 03:39 AM
Post #11


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,086
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 364



QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
If totems pick the shaman--an idea which I consider to be nothing short of nonsense--then it makes no sense for them to pick someone who denies their existence.

For what it's worth, the lead character out of the original Secrets of Power SR Novel Triology denied the existance of Dog for a good portion of the begining of the storyline, despite being a Dog Shaman.

QUOTE
a Horse is a Horse

Of course, of course.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Mar 21 2005, 03:48 AM
Post #12





Guests






It took a couple of successes on a Willpower (6) check not to add that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Young Freud
post Mar 21 2005, 04:11 AM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 118
Joined: 20-June 04
Member No.: 6,423



I think a big step in the right direction would be to include the Idols into SR4 BBB so we can start dealing with shamans of monotheistic faiths, as well as Nature and Mythic totems.

I think it's cool that if you're a Judeo-Christian shaman, you have two Idols that could represent the Big Man himself, the loving God (Creator) and the vengeful God (Sky Father).

"Wrathful god, loving god, wrathful god, loving god"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Demonseed Elite
post Mar 21 2005, 05:14 AM
Post #14


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,078
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 67



A Catholic Eagle shaman? That sounds an awful lot like idol worship to me, which is a pretty big no-no in the Western monotheisms. And by that I mean the Biblical sense of idol worship, not idols as the things in Magic in the Shadows.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 10:06 AM
Post #15


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



I suppose he is talking about a person who is rather secularised, but born and raised a cathlolic, and who views the magic and shamanistic stuff in a practical rather than religious way.

I can live with that shamanistic and hermetic magic are the two big ways of doing magic in Shadowrun America. I also think itīs good that the traditions are widely spread and mixed, like new age stuff is. (For example. I could not see norse magic holding a very big top spot here in Scandinavia. There would be just as many wiccans, hermetics and shamans). But as others have said, give the big religions some recognition in the new edition. Not just in fringe supplements.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Mar 21 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #16





Guests






Never assume!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 10:14 AM
Post #17


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



I think he is bla bla bla...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Mar 21 2005, 12:28 PM
Post #18


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



One's religion doesn't necessary need to be the same as their belief in the source of their magic. One may influence the other greatly, and more often than not they will be very closely related, but there's nothing about it that requires them to be the same.

At least no more than the non-existant requirement that alll scientists must be atheists.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
craigpierce
post Mar 21 2005, 12:37 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 398
Joined: 25-August 04
From: Denver, CO
Member No.: 6,599



QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
...then it would make as much sense that they'd piss away that gift because Satan was tempting them in the form of magical power at the cost of their soul (Since it breaks the First Commandment to worship--which is what adhering to totem strictures is--other deities)...

i would have to say that i would like to see the world's major religions worked into SR4 both in lifestyle (though that section may be small) and in magic. i think that adding a possible theological aspect to magic would give magic a good twist - you could then have a 'cleric' character, so-to-speak.

i believe that you could, in rare cases, have a shamanic christian. i think that angelic totems for catholics would be a great idea...and may i suggest a Jesus totem for use by any christian religion? i do not think this idea is great, but i would like to toss it out for discussion anyway...i see it more as rules on what advantages/disadvantages you would get if you simply worshipped Jesus instead of a totem. i would think of this kind of character as i would think of a stereotypical southern baptist - while performing magic they would hoot 'n holler things like 'Amen!' and 'Praise Jesus!'.

i also think that they could, being an enlightened christian, take on any of the regular totems out of respect for that animal and it's values, while always staying true to God. i just believe you could be deeply connected to the spirit of another person/creature without forsaking your duties to uphold God's law. it would all come down to the PC's ability to stay IC.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
craigpierce
post Mar 21 2005, 12:47 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 398
Joined: 25-August 04
From: Denver, CO
Member No.: 6,599



QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
One's religion doesn't necessary need to be the same as their belief in the source of their magic. One may influence the other greatly, and more often than not they will be very closely related, but there's nothing about it that requires them to be the same.

At least no more than the non-existant requirement that alll scientists must be atheists.

or that all hermetic mages must be scientists...they don't have to know anything about physics or biology to toss mana bolts around.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GunnerJ
post Mar 21 2005, 02:58 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 669
Joined: 25-May 03
Member No.: 4,634



QUOTE
and may i suggest a Jesus totem for use by any christian religion?


It is a little odd that there's not Divine Martyr idol.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Garland
post Mar 21 2005, 03:01 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 527
Joined: 30-January 04
Member No.: 6,043



There is, but their shamans don't last too long. :rotfl:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Synner
post Mar 21 2005, 03:19 PM
Post #23


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,314
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado
Member No.: 185



As a guy who's tried to reset the balance in the treatment of mainstream religions in SR (particularly Catholics but you'll see others soon enough) I just want to get it across once and for all, that very few modern religions have a truly magical paradigm, doctrine or philosophy (Judaism/Kabbalah and Islam/Sufism being notable exceptions) to be revived and reinvigorated by the Awakening.

This plus the fact that many such religions are in popular decline and many have vilified magic in dogma for centuries leads to a much lesser number of active magicians in the ranks of the mainstream faithful in the Sixth World than say the Wiccans, Neo-Druids, neo-pagans and shamanistic faiths see.

In fact in most mainstream (monotheistic) religions a clear distinction is set between the magical and the divine, leading to even more moral and spiritual complications to the Talented faithful. I've gone on enough about what this entails to Catholics in particular in other threads, but the same applies to Islam and Protestant Evangelicals, and to a slightly different degree to Judaism and Orthodox Christianity.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 03:30 PM
Post #24


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



Synner: Do you think any of the eurostuff is going to make it into the SR4 core book?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Mar 21 2005, 05:00 PM
Post #25


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,824
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
Yes, but those three you named came out how long since SR began? Until recently, they paid minor lip service to religion and magic. To be fair, I can only imagine the reasons why it was a good idea for FASA to not discuss religion and magic together for the longest time. But after a decade, it's a safe bet that they could discuss it without some of the backlash they would have faced back in 1989.

Western religion and religion and related faiths, yes. They were perfectly fine with concering themselves with other faiths, such as Hinduism, American/Uralic shamanism, Wicca, ect.

I don't see why Christianity (or, for that matter, Judaism, Zainism and Islam) shouldn't revceive the same treatment. Except that American audiences might not like this. But, newsflash: the core fanbase of Shadowrun isn't in America alone, or is it?

QUOTE
Fine. But these things should be clearly stated and handled in the same way as shamanic traditions, and the catholic church should be a major player when it comes to things magical. It has so much potential to be totally menacing in fiction.

Don't tell me you think the Catholic church isn't "shamanic" by Shadowrun standards ... it is, in fact, the closest to all these totem and idol thingies in practice and most pragmatic about integrating faith and life. And since we consider it a school of Shadowrun magic, that's the important part, though the Germany book's Theurgy propably has a place with the more materialistic sects, like Jesuits.

Most continental protestant sects would propably be better served with a "hermetic" approach, while America's christian tradition again would revolve around idols, most likely the puniticve and forgiving aspects of God/Christ (as separate Idols).

QUOTE
One's religion doesn't necessary need to be the same as their belief in the source of their magic. One may influence the other greatly, and more often than not they will be very closely related, but there's nothing about it that requires them to be the same.

I'd suppose so, though it gets a lot more difficult if the two sources are opposed to each other (evangelical christian shaman with a decidedly non-christian totem), especially if the shaman's faith is one of the less tolerant variants of a monotheist religion. Then again, the human mind can bend in many strange ways. Since I learned there's a Neo-Nazi movement in Israel, I doupt anything's impossible to unite.

QUOTE
At least no more than the non-existant requirement that alll scientists must be atheists.

Well, to a point. A biologist denying evolution isn't a real scientist because he choses to deny facts. Science, however, is all about factual evidence, which is needed to validate a theory. And before anyone here starts a tiresome debate on this topic, please don't; this forum is about sahadowrun. If you really want that debate, take it to PM, so ka?

QUOTE
The interesting thing about SR is, if you go into the nitty gritty of its cosmology etc...it does assume something like the existence of the soul...

Indeed. The whole idea of cybermancy would look really stupid without assuming there is a soul of sorts. Or, for that matter, astral projection. Not to mention there's the whole elf rebirth cycle thing mentioned in soem novels (Nosferatu, among others), the whole climax of the dragonheart cycle wouldn'T make much sense if Dunkelzahn hadn't a soul (or that aztech boss who seeks to transfer his soul into some victim) ... face it, Shadowrun assumes there is a soul. Which completely blurs the lines between religion and magic.

And if there're Elvis shamans, or self-initiated psionics based on Marvel Comics superheroes, I see absolutely no reason to exclude about half the world's population from SR's system of magic. Clearly Spider-Man and the X-Men aren't more of a spiritual and intuitive source than any monotheist holy scripture?

QUOTE
I suppose he is talking about a person who is rather secularised, but born and raised a cathlolic, and who views the magic and shamanistic stuff in a practical rather than religious way.

Who're you talking about?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

6 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th June 2019 - 08:48 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.