IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Meta-variants in the core rules, Make them more than curiosities
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 02:24 PM
Post #1


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



Otaku Mikeīs thread made me want to put this request in the light of day. Could we see a core book that takes a more general view of the sixth world? A book that truely can be the one and only center of all the rules and fluff no matter were you choose to play? If for example most trolls in Tir na Nog are fomori and those in Greece are minotaurs etc, I would like those to be equaly solid parts of the game world as the "normal" trolls in this edition.

Shadows of Europe was great but never gave the meta-variants much grounding in the game world, and nether did the companion. This would be a great opportunity to fix that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Mar 21 2005, 02:22 PM
Post #2


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



According to Synner, Metavariants are not the majority, even in their respective 'home environments'. They are, as the name implies, variants, and are not the norm, or the default for the races in question.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Mar 21 2005, 02:27 PM
Post #3


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



QUOTE (mintcar)
Otaku Mikeīs thread made me want to put this request in the light of day. Could we see a core book that takes a more general view of the sixth world? A book that truely can be the one and only center of all the rules and fluff no matter were you choose to play? If for example most trolls in Tir na Nog are fomori and those in Greece are minotaurs etc, I would like those to be equaly solid parts of the game world as the "normal" trolls in this edition.

Shadows of Europe was great but never gave the meta-variants much grounding in the game world, and nether did the companion. This would be a great opportunity to fix that.

While I enjoy metavariants for the most part (simply because I consider them little more than Edge/Flaw packages for heritages), I'd much rather see them removed from the game entirely and instead have a means of creating your own variants built into the character design process. You know, like a physical Edges & Flaws with a smattering of some of the more down-to-earth SURGE effects. Attribute modifiers, being the main source of disapproval of the "munchkin" variants from what I can tell from some poeple's complaints, are meaningless fluff between variants.

So, you want to play a Satyr? Just throw on Satyr Legs to the Human or Elf race, give him a Greek heritage, work it into his background and whatnot, and voila... you have a Satyr. (Yes, I know they're currently an Ork variant. But they suck. :) )

Basically, I'd just love for the rules to allow players to be creative without too many restrictions. The standard creation rules should be baselines, with lots of customization options.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 02:59 PM
Post #4


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



I guess I wonīt get my way then.

The center of what I want is another matter though. Is there any chance they will look at the entire scope of the game world and bring the most essential stuff from all over, into the core book. Instead of just having basicly the same content as before, but with different rules and some extra back story? So we might not get the meta-variants in there, if theyīre so rare. Ok. One of the biggest reasons for me wanting that is that it would be a good sign of them bringing into view the whole of the sixth world instead of just Seattle. It could be a vehicle for bringing in global cultural differences in the rule book. Better to do that by having rules that reflect the differences in the book, instead of just having a text in the beginning saying a few things about the global situation. It would change the feel of the game in such a way that any setting would feel equally viable, I think.

<<<edit>>> I wouldnīt mind if they became less of simple curiosities as stated in the heading. Itīs time the oddball creatures of Shadowrun started developing a deeper sense of identity. It would simply be more fun to play them that way. They are silly the way they are, but theyīre really a good idea if you think about it. Stop calling them variants and increase the numbers I say.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Vuron
post Mar 21 2005, 03:06 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 468
Joined: 17-March 05
Member No.: 7,185



Personally I thought the metavariants (and the changelings) have been a bad idea since 2nd edition and vehemently oppose any measures taken to make them more desirable to play. Of course I tend to run high racism games so I could still use character based reasons to discourage the use of them but I'd rather not get into the neat kewl race/archetype combos. Of course I'd actually been in favor of reducing some of the more insane stats of the standard metahumans.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 03:32 PM
Post #6


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



Iīm for making meta-variants a more integrated part of the game world instead of them just being "kewl", different looks for your character! In my view, itīs the only way to go, sense they canīt just take them away, and having them like they are (which is: a bunch of stats and an ugly image) would be dauntingly bad, so bad.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Mar 21 2005, 04:05 PM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



Arrg. Metavariants are better as a curiosities that can be easily ignored IMO.

We can't have them be the norm for whole geographical regions. Otherwise the standard Elves, Dwarves, Trolls and Orks are the norm for which geographical region, huh? The regions for which the authors couldn't think of a kewl new race?

Personnally, I don't think metavariants make very good runner for a simple reason.

Cyclop player : "How come the bad guys can so easily track me down?"
GM : "There are maybe 30 cyclops in the whole city, 15 of which are male, and only you who is cybered, weight lifting every day, above aevrage height for a cyclop and known in criminal and gang circles."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sepherim
post Mar 21 2005, 04:13 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 326
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom)
Member No.: 1,446



I personally like the metavariants more or less as they stand. Bringing them into the basic book could be a good idea IF all the creation rules will appear in it with no future expansions, but since that probably is imposible due to space limits (for example, we'll probably keep on using SSG if we want to personalize lifestyles) I'd keep them out so more important things can go in the book.

As for a wider scope, it's interesting, surely, but would take way too many space. Of course a description of Europe wouldn't be so in-detail as in SoE, surely, but it wouldn't be covered in less than a couple pages, probably. Add into that SoLA, SoNA and SoA and we get an enormous history section... and nothing a bit detailed so new players can start playing. I'd say that the need for a centering around the UCAS (Seattle specially) is quite high if you're to keep a low wordcount on it. And that surely is a pity.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 04:15 PM
Post #9


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



Charon: Granted. The only thing thatīs good with the current way of things is that they are easy to ignore. Shadowrun is walking a thin line and does not want to become to much fantasy. So they have made a game with moderate amount of integral fantasy parts. Then theyīve loaded tons of fantasy stuff on top of that for people to pick and choose from, of which nothing is explained or really fits in anywere. I wish they would be more concistant from now on. And have the fantasy elements they do introduce thuroughly explained. The variaty is fine in some ways, but an example of what I mean is that I would rather have a critter book with 30 thuroughly explained beings, than one with hundreds of stats with a few words of description and a name.

Sepherim: Sure, it would take a lot of space. If you described every country and location in a separate chapter. But Iīm sure the book will be mostly rules anyway. A detailed location could certainly be bought in a separate book. I would like a lot of the rules for chinese and european magic and such things to be included. Just take any area specific rules that can be found scattered around the recent books and compile them in the new edition (new variants of the rules at least). Make it so you have all the basic rules you need in the core book no matter which location you choose to play in.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
craigpierce
post Mar 21 2005, 04:24 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 398
Joined: 25-August 04
From: Denver, CO
Member No.: 6,599



i'm sorry mintcar, i agree with the majority on this one.

while i think that meta-variants should stay/be fleshed out a little more, i think that the core book should be reserved for the standard world.

i would support adding a "world" section that quickly touches on areas besides north america...but i wouldn't miss it if they didn't add one.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 21 2005, 04:34 PM
Post #11


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



What should then be done to the problem of me currently needing to go through like 6 books for all I need to run a game in Europe? Maybe we could see a World of Shadowrun book, with all the extra races, traditions, gear and rules existing outside of North America?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
craigpierce
post Mar 21 2005, 05:12 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 398
Joined: 25-August 04
From: Denver, CO
Member No.: 6,599



QUOTE (mintcar)
What should then be done to the problem of me currently needing to go through like 6 books for all I need to run a game in Europe? Maybe we could see a World of Shadowrun book, with all the extra races, traditions, gear and rules existing outside of North America?

hopefully, with all this 'streamlining' they are doing, that number will be cut down signifigantly.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lord_cack
post Mar 21 2005, 06:40 PM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 28-November 04
Member No.: 6,853



I like the Meta-variants. I think they add a nice flavor to the game and to those who complain about them, they are very easy to ignore and exclude from the game. What I find myself doing is altering them, because I have a lot of Dungeons and Dragons players in my group, they don't like "The Night Ones" so with a few modifications you get "drow". While that goes against my better judgement, it works. I don't think the Meta-variants should be in the Core Book however. I think anything that "adds" to the game world should be in a different book.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Mar 22 2005, 12:42 PM
Post #14


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



I'd just as soon the lot of them get swept under the rug, the rug get stamped on then lit on fire. There's no need for them. Call them regional names for metaspecies, if you have to, but they don't need their own crazy mutations and their own stat mods, etc, etc, etc. They bring a whole new angle of anime/fantasy munchkinism into it that I don't, personally, feel there's any sort of need for.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanka
post Mar 22 2005, 12:58 PM
Post #15


Chrome to the Core
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715



I love it how when somebody doesn't like something, it's obviously munchkiny.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Mar 22 2005, 01:03 PM
Post #16


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



Right. 'Cause none of the Metavariants are just "base metarace, but better."

Night Ones ("Ooh, I have what for my Quickness?"), Dryads (which we've seen twinked on here for just stupid Charisma bonuses before), Cyclops (who seem to almost all be melee physads, strange that I don't see that in their write-up), Gnomes (who are universally Albino, and spellcasters, of course)... there's no potential for munchkinism there, and everyone only ever takes them for the deep role playing experience.

Sorry. But I just don't see a need for them. I'd be all for them being regional names, maybe even looks-oriented regional variants...but they don't need their own stat line. When they get their own statline, the devs can go one of two ways, better than the metaracial base, or worse than it. When they go worse than it, no one plays them. When they go better than it (which they did, in several cases), too many people play them (and then min/max them some more, and play them outside their traditional region, etc, etc, etc).

I think the game's fine without them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanka
post Mar 22 2005, 01:46 PM
Post #17


Chrome to the Core
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715



I've taken them without being munchkin before.

It's up to the GM to deliver the line they have the authority to use: "No." If it isn't used, you end up with Gnome Albino Ghoul Shamans that can use Blood Magic then eat their victims for lunch.

Is it FASA/FanPro's fault if they introduce something and a few players take it and twink it to death? Is it their fault if the game is twinked at all? No! It's the fault of the GM for not putting his foot down and telling a player "No."

If you think it needs to be removed because of a few erstwhile players, maybe you should rethink things a bit. There is no game police/lynch mob (though sometimes it'd be nice), and therefore anything in another game does not have to be used whatsoever.

Hell, you could houserule it and tell somebody they can't use Metavariants in your game because, well, it's your game.

If you do not have the testicular strength (sorry to any female GMs out there) to tell somebody that they cannot play the Cyclops Melee Demon, then maybe you shouldn't be a GM.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Mar 22 2005, 01:51 PM
Post #18


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



You're a little touchy on this one, aren'tcha?

Here's a thread for people to share their opinions and ideas for metavariants (for what our opinions and ideas are worth), for SR4. I did so. Calm the fuck down.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanka
post Mar 22 2005, 01:55 PM
Post #19


Chrome to the Core
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715



No, I'm touchy when people claim something is munchkiny because they don't like it or because -- god forbid! -- somebody used it once in a munchkiny fashion.

Not everybody who uses Metavariants are munchkins. Some do it for flavor, some for style, some just for the hell of it.

If you honestly believe everybody that has ever used a Metavariant uses it to twink, then you've lost touch with reality. Dumpshock is not every player out there. Hell, I bet it isn't even close to a quarter, and probably not even an eighth.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aes
post Mar 22 2005, 01:49 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 392
Joined: 13-January 05
From: Forgot where his meat body was
Member No.: 6,971



QUOTE (Tanka)
If you do not have the testicular strength (sorry to any female GMs out there) to tell somebody that they cannot play the Cyclops Melee Demon, then maybe you shouldn't be a GM.


Hear! Hear!

Metaraces - in the same numbers and types as SR3 should be in for consistency if nothing else. You ARE paying extra build points for them. If the whole purpose a player chose a metavariant was to min/max, it should be the GMs responsibility to stop them, not the publishers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Mar 22 2005, 04:33 PM
Post #21


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



My mistake. I didn't realize this was the lovey-dovey smooch and hug "Metavariants rule, and can do no wrong," thread. I'll keep my opinions to myself about the subject from now on, since it's so obvious I'm in the wrong forum!

Oh, hey, wait! This is weird.

Why are you guys so worried about keeping the numbers, again? 'Cause I seem to recall saying "they would work as regional names and even cosmetic differences," but stating I think the numbers aren't called for because they seldom have much to do with role-playing, and more to do with roll-playing. You guys, on the other hand, are insisting in the same breath that people don't pick a metavariant just for the numbers boost and that the numbers boost has to stay.

So, ask yourself: would you still make that Gnome/Night One/Giant, if they had the same stat mods and numbers as a Dwarf/Elf/Troll, cost no points, and the change was purely cosmetic?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Mar 22 2005, 04:59 PM
Post #22


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



QUOTE (Critias)
So, ask yourself: would you still make that Gnome/Night One/Giant, if they had the same stat mods and numbers as a Dwarf/Elf/Troll, cost no points, and the change was purely cosmetic?

Yup. Though I'd prefer it if some of the changes were beyond cosmetic, but reflected fairly through the use of an inherent (as opposed to add-on) Edge/Flaw system. As mentioned in my original post.

Variable attribute modifiers are meaningless to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanka
post Mar 22 2005, 08:51 PM
Post #23


Chrome to the Core
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715



QUOTE (Critias)
So, ask yourself: would you still make that Gnome/Night One/Giant, if they had the same stat mods and numbers as a Dwarf/Elf/Troll, cost no points, and the change was purely cosmetic?

Yeah, I would. Why? Flavor, style, role-play, an interesting character idea that didn't fit in so well with your regular run-of-the-mill metahuman.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintcar
post Mar 23 2005, 12:26 AM
Post #24


Karma Police
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,358
Joined: 22-July 04
From: Gothenburg, SE
Member No.: 6,505



I could care less about the stat modifiers. The biggest reason people hate them is because they are presented in such a totally unattractive matter. Hire a good artist to do pictures of them and write at least a page each of story and explanation. I mean, in a game that has fantasy elements like different races and monsters, it would be crazy not to have regional differences around the globe. Why would you see exactly the same races if you travel to another continent? And what about all the different nationalities inhabiting a metroplex, what use is multiculturalism if there is no variaty? Thereīs variaty in all other areas, why the heck not in metahumans? I think itīs a very good idea to give different regions in the game world something to call their own in terms of awakenings. Now, I know you said you would accept them as regional variants only with the same stats. Good. Itīs setteled then. Except I donīt know why you would rather want that, but ok.

<<edit>> That would probably mean that the stats were less reflecting the description. So I think it would be worse, myself.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Mar 23 2005, 06:52 AM
Post #25


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



So, hold on. You guys claim to be three for three, with all of you saying you'd play metaracial variants for the name, the looks, and the deep role-playing opportunity (and not the stats).

Why was it such a big deal when I called the stats munchkinny, then?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 02:11 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.