 The Otaku, what the hell are they |
  |
 Mar 22 2005, 05:07 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137  |
I understand the reason for fading from a game balance pov, as otaku on a time course of many years become absurdly powerful. I also did like it when they were kind of crazy NPC children, I like the Peter Pan stuff. On the other hand, I don't really buy any of the reasons of fading, as from a neurological perspective they just don't work. The massively increased placticity of childrens brains (there ability to learn some things like languages faster) disappears between age 7 and 10. If Fading were to occur due to that, it should happen no later than puberty and event that may be pushing a bit. As far as the developing too rigid of a mental state, that doesn't really work either. Not everyone actually does develop the supposedly rigid state we define as "adult," maintaining a more childlike view of the world to various degrees. Further the nature of the otaku does not lend itself to forming this the adult mindset, as they have massive evidence that their way is correct, and they have fairly little contact with adults to convince them otherwise.
Beyond that, there is the fact that at least some AI otaku, like Red Wraith, don't fade, and that the Dissonance seems to allow fading otaku to not fade. These things are what lead me to the programed fading of their abilities. The Resonance grants the ability, and it takes it away. I do kind of like the thought that undergoing the Resonance warps any latent magical ability they may have by view the matrix as astral space making it impossible for them to truly awaken. I don't know that I consider undergoing the Resonance a warped awakening, but it's very nature warps their minds in such a way that they can not awaken normally (I'd imagine they still could with active training, esspecially given that one of the Immortal Rule-breakers, err elves learned the otaku abilities, iirc). |
 |
 
|
|
Mar 22 2005, 06:35 PM
Post
#27
|
|||||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
So you wanted a game mechanic to make them less then ideal as Pc's but still an option if one weanted to play one??
This is one thing about Otaku that does annoy me, most people that want to play one, but aren't will to have any of the disadvantages that come with being a child. Come On!! the fact your a child is a MAJOR part of the character. I've seen many games with the GM saying i'm wanting Otaku, but the youngest is 15.
Though this makes perfect sense as to the reason why i can't help but think that it's unfair. After all the amount of karma and effort you've put into the character only to have start losing it after a period of time is unfair. You wouldn't ask a person playing a mage to start losing abilities after X amount of years game time would you? However, I do also see that if you play an Otaku thats is in fact a child then the fading is itself a very distant thing, and by then you should have enough submirssion grades to beat it off for a long while.. But it's the possibility thats gets to me. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 22 2005, 06:52 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
I would just go with a simple manner of making the Otaku keep with SOTA with a minor Karma expenditure, some studying, and some expenditure of money. The Karma would be negligible becuase it is Karma that keeps the character going. Studying/practicin g would be anything form reading the latest computer theories to practice runs. The money would be for paying for deckers and othe Otaku to have "safe" matrix fights, paying for special sim time, and setting up practice runs.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2005, 06:58 PM
Post
#29
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
More like a game mechanic to make them adhere to the spirit of what the otaku were, namely children.
Yeah, the idea was that player otaku wouldn't really be experiencing the Fading much, since if they were actually played as children, the Fading would be pretty far off (which is another reason why it starts much later than say, puberty). But yes, if otaku were a base player type (instead of an optional rule), I would be fully in favor of a better system. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 22 2005, 06:57 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Indeed, I kinda like lorthazar's idea for a system. A consequence of it is that you can--and probably should--lower the costs of Submersion, as currently it costs as much as a mage's non-ordeal group initiation but with fewer benefits.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2005, 07:12 PM
Post
#31
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
or perhaps for a main stream Christian today being "Born Again," or "Touching God." show me on the doll!
can you imagine? once corps find the appropriate carrots and sticks to influence an AI, they'd have their own Otaku factory.
Demosthenes, I like your name... did its use in Card's books prompt your adoption of it? In response to your questions on the Matrix as being a place or reality, I would say it's very much a plane of existance parallel to the meat world, the astral plane, and any others we might find. Communication professors insist that through communication we construct our reality, that is connotative meanings vs denotative, and mutually agreed upon terms, establishment of identity and so forth. When we hold conversations, they don't take place in the real world. You can't observe the thoughts or ideas we discuss, rather reality is a shared delusion for us because we can aggree for the sake of discussion that up means up and green causes us to both picture the same color. In short reality is what we make of it, hence the phrase "Perception defines reality." A mind is the the vital component, the medium is incidental. Meat, metal, electrons, astral ether... nevertheless "Cogito ergo sum." Our own brains do not need grey matter for the neural network to function... it operates in other conditions, such as saline. As for where spirits would go or if they exist if our Awakened were neither there to percieve them or collectively and unconsiously day dream them or their envirionment... People can log on or off of the matrix, spirits can be summoned or materialise... even humans can, well... ever hear that popular message board insult "log off life?" As for your analogy in turning off matrix computers but leaving one decker to leaving one shaman... that's not parallel. The matrix is the medium as astral space is the medium. Shutting down computers that construct it is not analogus to removing all but one Awakened. Removing all other deckers *is* analogus to removing all other Awakened. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 22 2005, 07:31 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well not necessarily. I contend that, at least in the astral world, the things that use astral space and the things that give astral space are one and the same. But this is rather far afield from the original topic, so let's move it elsewhere, hm?
(Edit): Actually, on further consideration this can't be true. If it were then there'd be no mana cycle, so there must be some outside factor keeping astral space accessible. I suppose one could make the argument that the earth itself is alive and intelligent, and therefore contributing to the existence of astral space or something, but that's getting a little far-fetched without any real evidence. I don't suppose Earthdawn makes some mention of the planet itself having self-awareness, does it? |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2005, 07:55 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Now you going into Spirits Within and the Gaia Theory
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2005, 08:08 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Never. Mention. That. Movie. AGAIN.
*heads off to stab brain with a toothpick* |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2005, 08:54 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
We've had a twelve year old otaku in our game, lots of problems, from transport, to bouncers not wanting to let him in, to employers not taking him seriously until he pulls some "Data divination", at this point he's made good friends with the adult decker on the team, and the decker speeks for him. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 23 2005, 04:43 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
I was rather a fan of the otaku being magical in nature. I seem to recall in one novel a shaman looking at an otaku on the astral as he decked in and his aura flowerd out of his body and up the data cable as he logged on. I thought it was realy a neat concept, and internaly consistent with the game universe.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 04:56 AM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137 |
@Halabis
If you could extend on why you think otaku as magical in nature is internally consistent, I would love to hear it. I wouldn't be totally opposed to them being magical if it didn't seem so out of sync with every other magical thing in the world. Initially, before I really thought it through carefully I liked the idea of them being mages of the machine and the Resonance being a Great Spirit of the machine, but I just can't see the consistency in it. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 05:17 AM
Post
#38
|
|||
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Actually this kinda supports *my* idea more, that the otaku are kids who tried to awaken, but instead of reaching to the astral and becoming a mage they reached out to the Matrix and became otaku instead. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 23 2005, 05:14 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I would say hands down the oldest Otaku is dodger. Now he is clearly an AI made Otaku, but damn
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 05:26 AM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Dodger is a decker. He has an insanly powerfull AI following him around like a lost puppy. Do not screw with dodger.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 05:34 AM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Backing Lindt up on this one. Dodger is a decker. Ronin is an AI created Otaku thats on the old side along with Red Wraith.
The oldest none AI created Otaku that I'm aware of is Syzygy though Amor is also a posibility and there both fading. @ Eyeless I didn't think it was a bad film, but then i never played any of the games. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 06:36 AM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
Which of the Hacker House admins are Otaku? I know Syzygy is, but weren't there two others? They'd have to be getting on in years by now.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 06:49 AM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Where you get that? As i don't remember it in Target:Matrix (I've just done a quick re-scan) It mentions Grid Reaper whos a ghoul Decker (or is that Hacker?? :D) but not Syzygy. If by Admins your meaning the creators. None are (as far as i can tell) as they were all employed corp programmers before they started hacker house. I'm not saying your wrong just like to know where you've read it. |
||
|
|
|
||
 Mar 23 2005, 08:35 AM
Post
#44
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Actually, I just picked it because I was in a hurry, my preferred handle wasn't available, and it popped into my head. It helps that it contains, at least in part, my preferred username (which is Stheno, for those who want to know).
But the thing is, that when you log off the matrix, you're still here. Where do spirits go when they aren't here? The matrix, and everything within it, is contingent and dependent upon the existence of and interaction with another "reality". It's existence is not independent of human or technological agency, is more or less what I was trying to get at. My analogy was flawed, I'll grant, but that's what happens when you try to think complex thoughts in the middle of a coffee break... I think I may have been trying to shove two separate points into one... (Enough with the OT stuff for now, methinks). [/Blatant thread hijack] As to Otaku being magical...I just don't like that idea. The human brain can adapt to all kinds of weird things. The idea that something in the net can effect complex changes to the brain (even a prepared one) over a short period of time, using only data and a datajack, is a bit of a can of worms though... |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 23 2005, 08:58 AM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
what's not necessarily so exactly? if you're refering to my rant about the collective construction of reality that's true enough, it's not necessarily so. but by that same token, no conjecture here is necessarily so. ( unless someone here is sitting behind a desk in an office behind a door that says "Shadowrun Fourth Edition Editor," which given this devious group of miscreants isn't hard to imagine) </tinfoil hat> Anyway, forgive the deviation, but I don't think a rabbit trail here or there will lead to message board anarchy. :grinbig: rather it can encourage more organic discussion. As to the manacycle concern, it doesn't necessarily preclude the rest of what you suggest. The Factors that create and use astral space could be as complex as the worlds within worlds idea, a la Men In Black. Think Plato's Theory of Forms. The collective life forms on earth perhaps can maintain X level of mana for Y amount of time, then they need to rest. Hence the dip in mana levels. In addition to this, external factors may influence our Manasphere the way the way our scientists can manipulate a single celled organism. For the record, speaking as someone with no experience with the game and who treated the movie as an entirely different entity, I found Final Fantasy Spirits Within to be an interesting film. Remember how contraversial it was at the time? Actors and unions were freaking out about how they might be replaced by digital actors... there was a stigma at the time amongst the elite against those big names that voiced the project. The indy folks were excited to see this because it could mean the limitations and boundaries falsely imposed upon the creativity of the smalltime filmaker by feasability, budget and studios were removed. So far it hasn't happened, but it was the begining of a dream. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 23 2005, 09:04 AM
Post
#46
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
mmk, thanks for the clarification on the name. I'm not overly knowledgable about this stuff, but is the question "Where do spirits go when they aren't here?" unanswerable? Where do they come from originally? What about this, if I were to sit plugged into the Matrix and I watch someone log on and speed around for a bit, then they log off or take some dumpshock when their connection is severed, they dissapear from my perspective. Where did he go? Unless he's dead, I presume the Decker or Otaku is out in our "Real World" somewhere. Cannot the same be true of spirits in their own way? So maybe these planes of existance are layered. The same way Matrix is dependant upon our technology, perhaps ( or certainly?) the Astral is dependant upon forces we don't yet fully understand. I guess what I'm dancing around is the anthropic principal, the idea that what we observe is influence by the fact that we are present to observe it. I don't want to be so arrogant as to assume our reality experience with the matrix is unique simply because we can observe and describe it first hand. I contend that your analogy may not be flawed. </thread jacking> as to the concern about affecting a brain drastically over a data line ... I tend to agree with you, however the problem you describe reminds me of how the Dixie Flatline and Case in Gibson's books ( for those familiar with them) have their hearts stopped and their minds written to/from by AI. If this were any kind of a similar situation, (and it wouldn't be the first thing borrowed from Gibson,) it is concievable. </idle speculation> |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 23 2005, 11:00 AM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
@Shanshu (With apologies to everyone else for more shameless thread-jacking):
Spirits come from the metaplanes, and can return their more or less at their convenience. The only real definition one can find of a metaplane is that it is a weird, story-like place that is Not Here - ie, it does not seem to correspond with our physical reality in any normal way. Works really well as a kind of "Otherworld"... My question was rhetorical, intended to draw upon the point that there is more to what exists than can necessarily be immediately perceived (in SR Canon, at least). To protect the innocent: [ Spoiler ] As to the Anthropic Principle and the matrix...well, the matrix is one of those places where the anthropic principle can and must apply: not only does the matrix only exist because humanity exists, it only exists because humanity built the whole ball of wax. As to the Gibsonian Black IC can of worms: the reason I raise it is essentially as follows-> We have evidence of at least one, if not more AIs, that can cause complex modifications in the functioning of the human brain - modifications that correspond at least in part to "learned behaviour", ie you can practice and improve upon these abilities (channels, forms, etc). We also have Psychoactive IC, which influences your behaviour. This means that, by the sole agency of a datajack and simsense, it is possible to alter someone's mind and teach them stuff. This does not mean that I think it should be possible to jack into a virtual tutor programme, and suddenly "I know kung fu", but that the technological implications of canon phenomena are that this may someday be possible... This however is an issue of the underlying assumptions that influence what "reality" is in the canon game setting and their consistency: a lot of what turns up in novels, adventures and sourcebooks is there because it's cool, not necessarily because the author thought its implications for the game world all the way through. Otaku (especially 'artificial' otaku and adult otaku), Black IC, and psychoactive Black IC, all imply that the Datajack and simsense are capable of doing all kinds of interesting things to a human brain... I haven't seen a lot of this creeping into canon lately, but I haven't been looking too hard the last few months, to be honest. Both this area of research, and the somewhat-related area of "Why do people keep thinking even when they're turned to goo by magic" are going to be on the cutting edge of Corp R&D in my next SR game... That, and the corps who use psychoactive IC to turn violent offenders into pacifists instead of imprisoning them... |
|
|
|
|
Mar 23 2005, 01:54 PM
Post
#48
|
|||||
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
That's a good point. Unfortunately the very existence of *any* external factors kinda invalidates the idea that astral space exists solely in the collective minds/souls of intelligent life. But nothing says that the astral isn't at least *partly* subjective in nature; in fact the existence of background count ((Edit): and the extremely subjective and impressionistic nature of the metaplanes) seem to indicate that the collective mind can influence and is possibly contributes to or defines the nature of astral space on a basic level.
Well I agree it was controversial and revolutionary in terms of the technology and all of that, but the plot just stunk to high heaven. "Oh no! The soul of the woolly mammoth is killing us for being mean to the planet! Quick, we have to go on a scavenger hunt to find the six chosen ferns and combine them in a genetic scanner to save us all!" :) I find it somewhat telling that somewhere between 25-50% of the polygons used in that movie were used to model the lead female's hair. :P As for assuming the (strong) Anthropic Principle is or isn't true... well that's the whole point os this whole tangent, isn't it? :) Discussing whether or not the the observability and manipulation of astral space relies on and is constrained by the existence of intelligent life? In the case of the metaplanes and spirits, the Anthropic Principle actually seems *more* appropriate due to the subjectivity of the whole thing. People trying to map the metaplanes, for instance, seem to be unable to do so because only in the rarest of occasions are any two observations alike. It seems to me that the metaplanes are more likely to be seperate layers of the collective unconscious, where all the thoughts and ideas surrounding a particular larger concept (say the abstract elemental ideal of Fire) are collected and stored. As for the nature of spirits, those seem to make more sense to me as collections of thoughts and impressions surrounding either a place (nature spirits), an abstract ideal (elementals, Loa, spirits of the elements), or even a specific person (Ancestor Spirits). The practise of Conjuring gathers these thoughts and impressions together, normally nothing more than stray mental and emotional flotsam buried on more fundamental levels of the collective unconscious (aka the metaplanes), and gives it an (astral) form using bits of the caster's own life energy (being damaged by Drain), or bits of energy gleaned from astral space (successfully resisting Drain). This is why nature spirits, being tied to impressions of a particular place (Domain), cannot leave it, unless the astral form is made particularly strong (Invoking). Elementals and other spirits can, however, because the thoughts and impressions that give them existence are tied to an ideal or person rather than a place. Watchers and thought forms, btw, I see more as the caster's own independent thoughts being given life and existence, thus why they are so weak. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 23 2005, 02:11 PM
Post
#49
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
This leaves only one little question: how does this definition of "spirit" deal with spontaneous manifestations (referred to somewhere in MiTS, iirc) and Free Spirits? Or Insect Spirits for that matter? (here I'm referring to the "Alien" nature of the spirits...since their nature is completely alien to our own, it's kind of difficult to justify their nature as being somehow contingent upon the human subconscious, is it not? [Nothing to see here. Just more threadjacking...] |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 23 2005, 02:25 PM
Post
#50
|
|||||
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well, spontaneus manifestation is a bit of a wrinkle, I suppose. I may have to come back to this one, but for now all I can think of is that it may be some sort of "mob summoning," where the collective unconscious mind itself Conjures the spirit on its own. Free Spirits are just what happens when a mage loses control over the spirit, and instead of ditching the astral form that the mage so thoughtfully provided and sinking back into the metaplanes the spirit decides to keep it and hang out for awhile. :)
What, you didn't think humans are the only things that contributed to the manasphere, did you? There are about a million insects for every human being on the planet; no matter how much more intelligent and multifaceted we are there's no reason to suppose that insects won't have their own collective unconsciousness, or perhaps contribute to it, in the same way that humans do. They may even have their own metaplanes, for all we know.
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 11th May 2026 - 08:03 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.