 2nd Verses 3rd, confused on something :( |
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 Mar 24 2005, 06:12 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950  |
Okay, as I've said before, my group and I primaraly use 2nd edition. This is due to several things, but that is not the point of my question. I've seen more than one post over the years where people say 2nd is overpowerd and 3rd is better because it is not as overpowered. The reason I'm confused is this:
2nd: Astral beacons can have spells grounded through them Starting availablity 6 not 8 fewer skills and attribute points Physad powers are more expensive All metahumans cost the same 3rd: Mages are more expensive point wise to make Tac computers got nerfed a bit (they needed it.) Okay, I'm seriously not being a smartass or sarcastic. I really don't understand, and would like to. We are starting to use some 3rd edition rules, and I'm trying to figure some things out and this would be helpfull. Everyone here here has been great at answering stuff thus far, so I'm hoping you all can help me understand. PS, the main reasons we didn't use third in the first place is: A.) We only had 2nd edition B.) The guy GMing all the games thinks third edition is stupid, and never explained or brought it up as an option. Afterwards, learning new rules is a pain in the ass. :) |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:10 PM
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#2
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Uh, wait till 4th edition comes out. Learning 3rd edition at this point is a waste of time.
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Mar 24 2005, 06:21 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 21-December 04 From: 50 Clicks north of Dragon City (Front Range Free Zone) Member No.: 6,896 |
In my opinion 3rd was overall, a good edition of the rules.
The main difference I found was the way initiative passes stacked up with extended actions. It changed the first round, but not so much later on. I do have to say, losing grounding was the biggest bad thing that came out of SR3. And that's not even that bad. |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:18 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
So what you want is a complete list of all the changes from SR2 or SR3? So would we!! Unfortunately, there isn't a list, many of us have been hampered by the fact some items missing from SR2 -> SR3 don't get mentioned so you are left to figured out that if it isn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist. Case and point, Grounding.
One of the items that shows the power shift from SR2 to SR3 is the Sorcery Test. In SR2 you roll the Force of a spell vs. SR3 where you roll your Sorcey skill for the Sorcery Test. With a 6 skill, the most dice you'll get to roll in SR3 is 12 (6+pool). Karma-wise, 3rd edition puts the screws on mages even further. Getting a F12 fireball costs 12 Karma, yay for SR2 mages! In SR3, getting a Sorcey 12, takes *way* more Karma that is further compounded by the link of attributes to skills for advancement. As I mentioned about Grounding, you can't do it in SR3. That means wandering mages can't annihilate the opposition with a F10 Manaball like they used to. There are other more subtle examples. |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:19 PM
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#5
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
3rd edition:
* You no longer get all the metamagics that you can scarf down upon Grade 0 Initiation. You only get one metamagic per grade. * Metamagics are also vastly more powerful in 2nd edition (i.e. Anchoring actually works, Shielding is not limited by initiate grade, etc.). * Spell Locks were changed into Sustaining Foci, and are Force dependent and generally cost more than one point of Karma to bond. * Sorcery is indeed more powerful, as you roll dice equal to your Sorcery skill rating rather than the force of the spell, and damaging spells no longer are tied into a single damage level (i.e. Mana Dart doesn't exist anymore). Certain spells were nerfed (but not enough, as the Force 1 Increased Reflexes +3 is still around with a vengeance). * Exclusive and Fetish rules were tweaked to provide much less of a benefit. * Physical Mages are now called Magician's Way Adepts and are significantly more difficult to develop, karma-wise. This has only barely stemmed their cheesiness, however. |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:24 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I don't think I'd consider SR3 more powerful. More flexible maybe, but not more powerful considering the sheer amount of dice SR2 would let you roll. |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:47 PM
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#7
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I should probably have appended "Starting Characters" somewhere, as when you are limited to 6 dice total, one would be more powerful with the the option to have 6 dice for all rolls than have 6 dice for only a handful of dedicated spells. |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:56 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Actually, it only says it allows them to use metamagic. It never says :They get all metamagic. It is implied, not stated. Therefor, as a GM, and thinking this is overpowered, I've usually ruled that no, you don't get them all at grade 0. Phys mages were an optional rule, and I never aloowed it. Physad with a power focus......shudder And it is true that astral mages can't smack a PC who is astrally active, however this goes both ways, PC and NPC, and takes away some of the danger of being a mage. I wasn't looking for a complete list, just a summation of why SR3 is Less overpowered than SR2. So far, you've explained mages. Okay, but I was asking in general. Did they just nerf mages? Oh, and um, to have a force 12 spell, if you MR isnt 12, don't you take physical drain? so yes the spell is cheaper, however casting it is still a BAD plan. The only thing in any game I've ever played in that had a spell like that was a Dragon or my vampire mage (essense 12, plust initiation) . Not to mention a hermetic library of apropriet lvl would cost :nuyen: 144000 min, with an avail of 12. Shamans get of easier, but the avail for materials is still 12. |
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Mar 24 2005, 06:56 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
I agree. |
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Mar 24 2005, 07:03 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I am looking at pure mechanics here. As far as availability, you could technically Astral Quest for the Spell, although it would be a nasty, bumpy ride. As it stands you could still throw a 12-dice handful, and keep all your pool for drain in SR2. In SR3, you'd have to probably use most if not all your pool to get the same 12-dice for the Sorcery Test leaving none or few for the test. |
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Mar 24 2005, 08:10 PM
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#11
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
They were? Forgive me, I don't have my copy of Awakenings sitting around, but I was under the impression that they weren't "optional". One is free to use or lose any rules, of course. Oh, the power focus gives another reason that 3rd edition is "more balanced"/"less powerful" or however you want to label it. * Reductions to Enchanting costs for First Bonding Karma apply to the Karma Cost Total rather than to the multiplier. Thus, it costs a LOT more Karma to enchant high Force foci in 3rd edition. |
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Mar 24 2005, 09:12 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
There's a couple other changes that get mentioned occasionally on these boards, but I'll hit 'em again just to be sure. Initiative. Mugzy mentioned it briefly. Basically, every character gets his first action in order, then every character gets his second action in order, and so on until nobody has any actions left. This eliminates the phenomenon where the wired 3 street sam gets his 3-4 actions, then everyone else gets to take their one. This change is either loved or hated depending on who you ask. Skills. Again a subject of frequent debate on dumpshock, there were a couple of changes to skills. The Firearms skill is no more; instead you have the Pistols skill, the Shotguns skill, the Rifles skill (for hunting/sniper rifles), the Asssault Rifles skill, and so on. They bumped up the number of skills a starting character gets slightly to compensate for people who want to know how to use a lot of different guns. The end result of this is that if you're not a sam/merc or someone else who uses every piece of firepower in creation you get a few more points to spend on other skills. Still never enough points, though. Also on skills, they added the category of knowledge skills. These vary from the usefull (Gang Identification) to the absurd (Russian Wines of the Nineteenth Century). You get a set amount of these skills at chargen depending on your intelligence. They're also much easier to raise with karma than active skills are. Overall, they fall into the plus category for SR3 when you're comparing SR2 to SR3. Decking has the basic rules from Virtual Realities 2.0 incorporated into the core book, so the DM no longer needs to map out every SPU and datastore in the target's matrix system. Not that most of us use the matrix for PCs anyway. Rigging has the vehicle combat system from Riggers 2 in the core book. Hello ultra-annoying maneuver score each turn. Personally, I've continued using the vehicle rules from SR2 in my games, despite using everything else from SR3. That's about all the major rules changes besides magic that I can think of off the top of my skull. |
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Mar 24 2005, 09:36 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
There is also attributes affecting skill costs both during and after creation.
And the disappearance of the skill-web. And the open tests. And the disappearance of concentrations. Basically major changes thoughout the skill system. |
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Mar 24 2005, 09:39 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Taiwanies pastry 4 anyone? :-) Guess how well that joke goes over will depend on who has read shadowtech. So the impression I'm getting is that the initiative system was changed to keep mister uber sam from doing 23 things before everyone else......have to think on that one, and making mages weaker. Everything else seems to be preety similar. I guess I can see the logic behind these things, but after re -reading the rules for SR 2, I think I can handle what problems I have with PCs using those rules. NOBODY in my group had ever heard of the avalibility thing until I saw it on here. Sure enough, it is in the 2nd Ed. Companion. Also, every GM before let the rating 6 slide on a few things. Like foci. And then people have gotten in the habit of taking stuff and doing things without asking. So now I'm going to stat looking over everyone's char sheet and asking 20 question. I hate doing it, they are all experienced and I shouldn't have to, but it happens. Now back on topic...:-) Thanks to all those who have and will respond, thank you. I like this kind of imput. I'm well versed in the world of SR, but sometimes I'm sketchy on a rule or two. |
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Mar 24 2005, 09:40 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Wait, they got rid of the skill web......how do you default?
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Mar 24 2005, 09:48 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
The test you make to see if you take an aditional box of damage for exceding the condition monitor went from once every 10 minutes in SR2 to once every (Body) combat turns in SR3.
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Mar 24 2005, 09:56 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
Doh! Forgot to mention the change I personally disliked the most! In SR3 they've linked all skills with a certain attribute. Some skills are also related to one another. If you need to use a certain skill that you don't have, you can default to a related skill for a +2 to the TN, or to the attribute for a +4. Example time. Pistols, Shotguns, Rifles, SMGs, and Assault Rifles are all linked to the Quickness attribute, and they are all considered related skills. Johnny the Brain-Dead Samurai has a Pistols skill of 5, an Assasult Rifles skill of 1, and no Shotgun skill. Naturally, the Brain-Dead wonder brings only his trusty Defiance T-250 shotgun to a firefight. Johnny can fire his shotgun using his Pistols skill, with an added +2 to all target numbers. He could also default to his Quickness attribute with a +4 to all target numbers. It's worth noting that the player can always choose to default to an attribute, even if he has a related skill. So if Johnny didn't have that Pistols 5, he could choose to go straight to Quickness rather than go off his miserable Assault Rifles skill. For skills with related pools such as the combat pool, there's also a limit on how much of the pool you can use based on how far you're defaulting from the main skill. That's about it. The only skills that you cannot default with are the magical skills, such as Sorcery and Conjuring. It works all right as a system, but a GM no longer gets to see the look of dread on a player's face when he says "Let's go to the skill web then, shall we?" |
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Mar 24 2005, 10:21 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I thought it was a great change personally. That skill-web was a mess. |
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Mar 24 2005, 11:51 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Well, the thing is that's still kindof a skill web. Just very different from the old one.
I like that they link att and skills more. I'm just not sure I I like it to this extent. I do like that skills are more or less expensive based off of the particular att. |
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Mar 24 2005, 11:42 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Didn't pools refresh every pass in SR2? Now it's every combat turn.
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Mar 24 2005, 11:57 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yep, same with movement. In SR2 you get to move your Quickness in each Phase, so it was pushed out to Combat Turns as far as refresh rates go along with pools.
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Mar 25 2005, 12:05 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
It's worth mentioning that wards are a LOT easier to create in SR3. You no longer need expensive materials, just need to spend the time and make the roll. And you can even have spirits create wards for you using their force in place of a sorcery skill.
This is good, considering that astral forms are no longer blocked by living auras. The wall of ivy no longer keeps mages out, unless it's been bio-engineered to be dual natured. |
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Mar 25 2005, 12:09 AM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Wow, I missed that one big-time. |
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Mar 25 2005, 12:31 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Another reason Mr. "4-actions" Sam was more freightening in SR2.
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Mar 25 2005, 04:30 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
K, maybe this was just a house rule, but I alway thought it was cannon. Pools refresh when you roll init. Not every combat turns.
We did house rule that Karma pool only refreshes at the end of each run. Every scene was too good. |
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