 Artillery?, Iraqis called it Steel Rain |
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 Mar 26 2005, 11:23 PM
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#77
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Ares M114A4 Cleric
Body: 10 Armor: 2 + 6 Ablative Cargo: 4 Handling: 3/3 Autonav/Pilot: 3/3 Sensor: 6 Seating: 3 Entry: 2h Load: 295 Speed: 50 Accel.: 3 Signature: 6 Fuel: 600l Diese Economy: 1.5km/l Chassis: Caterpillar, Heavy Street Index: 5 Availability: n/a Cost: 1,822,300 :nuyen: Other Features: BattleTac FDDM, ED-4, Extra-Large High-Elevation Turret (Medium Naval Gun, 36 rounds), Gas Enviroseal, Life Support (10 man-hours), Power Amps-10, Remote-Control Encryption Module-6, Remote-Control Interface, Rigger Adaptation, Smartlink Integration, Thermal Baffles-2 (factored in) The Extra-Large turret weighs in at 30,000kg and the Heavy Caterpillar has a Max Load of 25,000kg, so I had to get fancy with 7 levels of Engine Customization and Drive-By-Wire-3 to make it a worthwhile vehicle. I would really have wanted to add a Stoner-Ares M107 on a Ring Mount, but that would require a Body 12 chassis. :( |
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Mar 26 2005, 11:46 PM
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#78
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
BAe AS56 Conqueror
Body: 10 Armor: 6 + 6 Ablative Cargo: 5 Handling: 4/4 Autonav/Pilot: 3/3 Sensor: 6 Seating: 3 Entry: 2h Load: 317 Speed: 45 Accel.: 3 Signature: 6 Fuel: 650l Diesel Economy: 1.5km/l Chassis: Caterpillar, Heavy Street Index: 5 Availability: n/a Cost: 1,001,060 :nuyen: Other Features: BattleTac FDDM, ED-4, Gas Enviroseal, Large High-Elevation Turret (Light Naval Gun, 80 rounds), Life Support (10 man-hours), Power Amps-10, Remote-Control Encryption Module-6, Remote-Control Interface, Rigger Adaptation, Ring Mount (Stoner-Ares M107, 800 APDS rounds + 200 AV rounds), Smartlink Integration, Thermal Baffles-2 (factored in) |
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Mar 28 2005, 01:15 AM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Um, where are you getting the stats for the high-elevation guns? Is this a CC Weapon creation?
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Mar 28 2005, 01:44 AM
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#80
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I don’t know if this is what they did but the ante aircraft turrets would work for high elevation turrets.
Edward |
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Mar 28 2005, 08:20 AM
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#81
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, I used the rules for Anti-Aircraft turrets. I just thought it'd be really stupid to call them such.
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Mar 28 2005, 11:02 AM
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#82
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, could someone sum up the reason for going missile based artillery over the normal kind? maybe with the addition of deployable fins and laser/radar/gps guidance for the artillery shells (turning them into artillary launched jdams in effect ;) )?
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Mar 28 2005, 03:22 PM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Range, payload, flexibility, and perhaps also accuracy. The M26 basic tactical rocket for the M270 MLRS system weighs 302.5kg and carries 644 M77 dual-purpose (shaped charge + fragmentation) submunitions to a maximum range of about 32km. The M270 can fire all the 12 rockets it carries in one salvo. The M30 guided rocket has a maximum range around of 70km, with a 215-meter accuracy radius (50% hits within a 215-meter radius of target at 70km). Since 2002, the next generation rocket (Smart Tactical Rocket)with smart submunitions went into the engineering, manufacturing and development phase. In addition to the M26 basic and extended range tactical missiles, the M30 guided and the STAR, the M270 MLRS can fire M39 Tactical Missiles and variants, with maximum ranges from 165km to over 300km and much better accuracy, employing smart and dumb submunitions against soft and hard targets, as well as a deep penetrating conventional warhead model. The US M198 Howitzer, by comparison, has a maximum unassisted range of 22.4km and a max assisted range of 30km, but only 16.1km for smart munitions, a maximum rate of fire of 4 rounds/minute. The payload of a single 155mm cargo-carrying (submunition) projectile is around 1/10th that of a single MLRS missile. With guided munitions in low-angle fire, the accuracy is about half that of the M30 guided rocket. The new M777 lightweight 155mm howitzer, fielding to start in 2006, has about 10% longer range than the M198, a slightly better rate of fire, and is twice as accurate. With the newest XM982 inertial navigation guided round, it can achieve a circular probable error of just 10 meters at ranges up to 40km. The payloads are the same as with the M198, except for the XM982 which has a rather small payload. [/sales pitch] This is of course 2005-stuff, not 2064 (or 2070) stuff, but some basics are unlikely to change. Rocket artillery has a far superior range to and can provide far greater firepower over a short duration than cannon artillery. With guided munitions, rocket artillery is just as accurate as cannon fire. The huge payload allows for a large amount of submunitions, and even a large amount of smart, anti-armor submunitions, which provides a massive increase in lethality against any kind of target. |
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Mar 28 2005, 04:29 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
By the time of shadowrun I'd say that most militaries use guided munitions for thier mortars and howitzers. Even assuming the insane shelf life of current artillery (for example the 155mm howitzer entered service in 1941 and is still extremely effective for it's designated role) factor in self propelled variants for high-end militaries and you've got a weapon capable of hitting targets 30-40km away with rocket assisted munitions.
Mortars also have obscene ranges and potential damage codes. Pretty much these type of weapons obliterrate heavy armor and would basically be instakills to humans actually hit (although they would be more of secondary targets as they can move a good amount in the time it takes those shells to travel the distances involved) |
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Mar 28 2005, 05:20 PM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The US Army got its first 155mm howitzers, the French M1918s, in,you guessed it, 1918. Since then there's been the M1 and M2 howitzers through most of WW2 and the Korean war, the M59, the M114, the current M198 and the upcoming M777. The ammunition has seen a lot of changes as well. Much like the differences between the Soviet heavy artillery rocket launchers in WW2 and the MLRS system. The basic principle is the same, though, and there's certainly no reason to assume that rocket artillery will replace howitzers, let alone mortars, in SR much more than they have now IRL. Artillery can only destroy armored vehicles with shaped charge warheads or submunitions. Dual-purpose (shaped charge + area damage through fragmentation) submunition payloads will no doubt become more common in the future for all medium-heavy artillery weapons, as will guided rounds and especially guided dual-purpose submunitions.
With non-submunition payloads, definitely. With a 155mm howitzer, we're talking about a 40-70kg steel object hitting you at several hundred meters per second, and then 5-10kg of high explosives going off right next to or, better yet, inside you. With non-submunitions, anything called "artillery" these days is definitely an instakill to any metahuman on a direct hit. Or maybe if you hit a troll in the pinky with a 60mm mortar... Submunitions, though, are often of the same approximate size and effect against personnel as fragmentating hand grenades. Still, with one such submunition per 5 meter (15') square over a 440 x 440 meter area from a single 12-round ripple of M26 rockets, I wouldn't give exposed personnel in the impact zone very good chances of survival... |
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Mar 28 2005, 07:06 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Yeah I was referring primarily to the M114 which until recently was still in the US arsenal which was introduced in 1942. Even with it's replacement by the M198 and ostensibly the xm777 system we are talking a weapon that still is likely to be found in a variety of 3rd world armies. While I do think that Shadowrun would have some qualititative improvements over Real Life weapon systems I'm not sure I wouldn't expect to see the M114 or some variant thereof still around 50 years from now.
I can see 81mm and 120 mm mortars also being still very much in use in the future as they would be far easier to transport and maintain than some of the light howitzers and they have a pretty high cost to benefit ratio for infantry support. As for what rounds to use I'd say either copperhead style rounds for heavy anti-armor usage and mixed HE or DPICM rounds for anti infantry being the primary rounds used. Personally I think corporations would be hesitant to use too much DPICM style rounds as massive collateral damage is bad for business. For example the M971 shell for the 120mm mortar delivers 32 x M87 dual purpose (anti-personnel/anti-material/armor) submunitions. Each bomblet has can penetrate up to 105mm of steel and releases 1200 preformatted fragments. According to IMI a single cargo round covers a lethality area of 100x100 meters. Even with improvements we would be talking huge number of casualties in a densely packed area (like seattle). |
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Mar 28 2005, 07:17 PM
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#87
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ah, forgot about the submunition thingy, makes sense to use rocket powerd deployment of those gizmoes.
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Mar 28 2005, 07:40 PM
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#88
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Of course, the scary thing is that 4LN and 6LN will still not scratch the Leopard III. Or am I reading the rules wrong?
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Mar 28 2005, 08:07 PM
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#89
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Oh, definitely. A team of infantry can't carry a light howitzer in rough terrain, but they sure can a light/medium mortar.
With mortars and howitzers up to 155mm, yeah, that's probably what'd get used. Although already at 155mm it might be worthwhile to use guided, shaped charge submunitions. You don't really need a 30kg warhead to penetrate the top armor of an MBT. Submunitions will be far less effective in built-up areas. Only the shaped charge will penetrate roofs of buildings, and those cause minimal (negligible, even) damage to personnel/civilians. For MOUT, basic HE warheads will probably cause greater damage to personnel, because of their ability (once we get to medium/heavy artillery) to penetrate concrete walls and cause significant damage behind. If people are actually out on the streets, though, then we'd be talking about massive casualties, but I can't see a situation that would call for DPICM artillery to be used where there'd still be civilians outside near the target area. That does mean, however, that shadowrunners would very rarely have to bother with that sort of thing, at least in the receiving end.
That sort of thing sounds pretty impressive, until you compare it to the M67 hand grenade which releases over 1500 "preformatted fragments" (tiny little metal balls which are easily stopped by light cover). The terminal effect against personnel of a single submunition isn't particularly awe-inspiring. Basically, it's 32 under-strength frag grenades. Not that that ain't scary enough.
Nope, you're reading them right. You need 11LN, 7MN, 6SN or 5DN to damage a Leo3. [Edit]Interesting point, may or may not be true, but according to some sources there was a rule of thumb in the Soviet military (and perhaps still is in the Russian military) that for a breakthrough assault you need 1 gun tube per meter of frontage for effective neutralization of enemy defenses. Of course that would have been before widespread use of submunitions or dedicated anti-armor artillery rounds, but still... Do not underestimate the power of a good foxhole.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 28 2005, 09:47 PM |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 24th April 2024 - 09:53 AM |
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