 SR 4.0 suggestions and requests, Because we don't have a debate...yet |
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 Mar 26 2005, 05:12 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086  |
I've never thought mages were unbeatable to mundanes.. and I'm in a high magic/low money campaign. In fact.. the only mages that haven't been beatable by mundanes were designed as plot elementals that could only be beaten by the group working together or specific items. That's two out of dozens. Typically, the mundane character does the best of all the PCs for killing.. he's killed/disabled more high powered threats then the rest.
In fact, even as a starting character, he was beating decently powerful mages. Really easily if they didn't fight incredibly tactically.. Really, it's conjuring that makes mages and other casters scary.. and even then, they have to be pretty powerful.. since conjuring is absolutely brutal. Spirits and elementals are what mundanes have the most trouble against, I've found. |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:13 PM
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#52
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's why I'm just throwing ideas out. Everyone else seems to be doing so. ;) |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:28 PM
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#53
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Dawnshadow: the fact that you're playing a magic-heavy campaign tilts that. Mages are deadliest when there aren't many others about.
~J |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:29 PM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Sourcebook Request: Please avoid using color inserts.
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Mar 26 2005, 05:40 PM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Eh? Whyfor?
~J |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:42 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Kagetenshi: Not when the person doing the killing is the Street Sam, with no magic of his own, and the support is all tangled up with everyone else. The PCs at the time were Street Sam and Adept..
The type of magical threats I'm talking about are double digit initiates with lots of custom spells.. the one I remember most is a force 12 HARDENED armour spell.. there's also the mobile barrier spell that was I think force 20.. the 'punch in the face stun spell' |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:39 PM
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#57
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Then either your characters are Uber, or the Magical opponents capabilities are being downplayed against your mundanes.
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Mar 26 2005, 05:52 PM
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#58
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Were the PC mages high-level Initiates? If not, how was the team supposed to defeat those threats? If so, is the streetsam of comparable karma/cash total?
~J |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:48 PM
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#59
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
With nobody supplying Spell Defence, there is no way a mundane is going to stand up against a double-digit Initiate spellcaster ...
... unless he has surprise, and even then it isn't a sure thing. |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:58 PM
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#60
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's not true, a Rigger has a good shot at it. A mundane who needs to put his or her frail body near the mage, though, not so much.
~J |
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Mar 26 2005, 06:12 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Low cash, high karma.. so comparable karma, but severely limitted upgrades. Couple major windfalls, but those were instead of payment for runs. Big one was when he was given free run of a delta clinic for extracting a cyber-wizard from Ares.
The magical abilities weren't being downplayed. The threats were being designed based on the fact that our group didn't have any PC mages at the time, just an incredibly powerful adept. We had an NPC mage that was a high level initiate (12th I think, but magic was 15 or something like that), and an NPC shaman that was fairly high grade. The first mage (don't know much about her, other than she wasn't experienced in combat and had no idea how to deal with cyber) used the wrong spell at the wrong time, tactical mistake, and lost the advantage. She lightning bolted him later and nearly killed him.. did serious damage and blasted him across the room, but wasn't in good enough shape to survive the next few bullets that went at her. The second (Hel, Loki Shaman), had a force 8 hardened armour spell to start with, and a force 6 weapon focus.. but she was big on fighting, and arrogant. Lots of magic to make her better, and a few spells that she used occassionally, but once she got ticked, she wanted blood, and fireballs and laser spells don't help much with that. |
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Mar 26 2005, 06:20 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Württemberg, AGS Member No.: 2,068 |
I don't think the "double-digit initiate" part is the problem... the problem comes with high sorcery skill, diversified high-powered spells, and powerful foci - doesn't have much to do with initiating. |
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Mar 26 2005, 07:10 PM
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#63
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I assume they go hand-in-hand. They do in my games anyway. Initiation does help, but Sorcery skill is the key. From Dawnshadow's description though, the mages wer definitely being downplayed, and probably didn't have that high a Sorcery skill in any case. |
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Mar 26 2005, 09:04 PM
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#64
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
You know, this is a good point. How's this for an idea: everyone gets access to Spell Pool. Before you object, let me explain. Everyone (with or without access to Sorcery skill) get Spell Pool just like casters equal to (WIL+INT+MAG)/2 (note that this is an increase across the board, and that mundanes will have a Magic Attribute of 0, so they will almost certainly have less Pool than a mage.) Spell Defense is now a function of Spell Pool, which is really the only thing a mundane can use Spell Pool *for*, and represents basically how much your active willpower comes into play in resisting spells/casting spells/etc. Most of the limits to Spell Defense outlined on pg. 183 of SR3 apply: you can protect a number of other people equal to your Sorcery skill, and only if they're within (Magic * 100) meters. Thus for all practical purposes mundanes get Spell Pool equal to (INT+WIL)/2, but it's only real use is for resisting spells cast on them. Sound like a good idea? Hell I'd try to put something like this into a current game as a house-rule, but a new edition would be a perfect place to muck around with this as an idea. |
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Mar 26 2005, 09:44 PM
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#65
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
Ok, let me elaborate further. Take a samurai. What can he do in any given situation against a random hostile target? He can go into melee, smack 'em up personal, maybe with spurs, maybe with bare hands, maybe even a dikoted katana. He can use a flash or a smoke grenade to make a bunch of guards or gangers helpless. He can use a frag grenade to make them slightly dead and send some of them running per their professional rating. Finally, he can shoot 'em. Pretty straight forward stuff. Now, if you have an imaginative roleplayer as a samurai, he can be creative. Use the terrain, bounce off walls, herd the enemy over a cliff, use cover, bluff, intimidate, etc. Now look at what the magician can do. Hell, the sky's the limit! The magician can alter the battlefield in a way that makes a flashbang grenade look like a match. You want solid cover in a wide open field? Shape earth or Physical Barrier. Enemy's getting away in a limo with your target? Ice sheet. Outnumbered and outgunned? Hot potato. And I haven't even started with the spirit powers. The power of magic is the power of improvisation. Where it takes a normal person half a day with a shovel to dig a trench, or a couple hours with a make up kit to disguise, or a full day with paint to alter the look of a vehicle, the magician may decide that he wants that done in a complex action. And presto - another tough situation avoided. Oh, I know about the new wiz carpaint and ruthenium polymers and the license plates that change. But these need installation and money. Vehicle Mask spell can be cast out of the blue on any vehicle down the street. Even the one you had to hijack because the run went bad. Shadowrunning is all about improvisation - because no plan survives contact with the enemy. And magicians are the masters of it.
Try to see the big picture. How much does a submarine cost? Compare that to the cost of a spell formula that allows one to breathe water - or the physical barrier to make an -improvised- air bubble around the team. Just as the enemy wonder, where the hell did they go? If you didn't know you'd have to make a getaway through the sewers and across the bottom of a lake, you wouldn't have that submarine where you needed it. Oh sure, you could have a bunch of scuba diving suits and stuff stashed in the right place, but the problem is you need to do that in advance. Not when the drek hits the fan.
Yeah, if you had the real thing, and paid for it with real money, permits and all, and then had it magically appear just where you needed it to get your team out of a deadly situation, you'd be golden. And what if you don't? Here's the kicker tho. Suppose you do have a Citymaster APC, with Lone Star corp colors and illegal riot control weapons and all. You stole it. The Lone Star is out to get you, but eh, wouldn't be the first time. And when the go-gang decides they don't like your car, your face and your girlfriend, that Citymaster sitting in the other side of town under the shed where Lone Star will never find it - won't do you any good at all. And you just might die, and the last thought just might be 'if only my Citymaster was here'. Ok, I'm making it a bit melodramatic, but I think I get my point across.
It makes a whole lot of difference when they're carrying things that do. Oh, in a different setting (say, Rifts) I would agree with the gung-ho attitude of the munchkinism, so bring forth the cyberzombie trolls and let the heads roll. But we're talking about Shadowrun, and shadowrunners simply don't have the luxury of lugging around assault cannons and milspec armor to every job. Sometimes all you can smuggle in is a ceramic little pistol and form fitting body armor. And sometimes - nothing at all. Buck-naked, magician is still dangerous.
He doesn't need to see you when you're casting it. Furthermore, if you didn't check for astral bodyguards, serves you right.
You bring that thing everywhere you go? :) The MMG, I mean? Because I get a feeling that you don't. Now magic, on the other hand... you have everywhere. Even when tied up and being interrogated by the mob, you can go out with a bang by detonating a fireball at ground zero. That is, if you didn't have any better ideas at the time.
Ever try flying that drone through a corridor? On the tenth subterranean bunker level with elevator doors this narrow?
Are you telling me that drones can track a loose cannon shadowrunner better than spirits can? He really shouldn't have bled on that crime scene... Spirit domains don't really factor into that, because that's what you get Watchers for. They'll find you on the other side of the planet if the magician knows what he's doing. And the worst of it - you won't hear any helicopters or see any baloons in the sky, or strange, extremely large insects on the wall. You might see a shimmer or two. But it'd be too late then. As to being less powerful? Drone vs. Elemental, one on one death match? Immunity to Normal Weapons? Engulf? Even if the Elemental somehow starts to lose (say, the elemental was tiny and the drone was tricked out), the elemental has the luxury of going astral to disengage, and get healed up back to full if the magician spends an extra favor. How fair is that? Oh and lets not forget the bottom line. What did your rotodrone cost you? 10-30k? With all the guns and custom parts? A nice elemental costs 6k for a force 6 riot control monster. If the magician is experienced he can summon up force 10 elementals for 10k a pop. More bang for your buck? I think so. But let's not degenerate into statistics here. The magician has the rigger beat here, just by the flux rating. The rigger's drone has to be within N kilometers of rigger's body. The magician can be in Russia. Which makes the rigger a lot more vulnerable once the magician in astral form notices the drones buzzing around and starts following them with watchers. The drones will eventually run out of fuel, and the watchers - out of time. But it's a losing battle for the rigger, because the drones may lead the magician either to the rigger himself, or to one of his safehouses or drone-carrying vehicles ("motherships"). Then it becomes a trivial matter to track the rigger down and assault him with six elementals on a leash while he's in the shower, naked. With no chance of striking back - because the magician stays in the "asshole space". You pay some karma or nuyen to have a watcher around for days, and it's a lot cheaper and more convenient than replacing a broken milspec drone...
Tell you what... if samurai had guns that could be smuggled anywhere and be virtually non-detectable (concealability infinity+) and those guns didn't need combat pool to be used, I'd agree with you. But they don't, and that's too bad. (I know that you're going to say about the drain, but drain is what happens to amateurs before they learn how to use magic well. No magician will suffer drain unless he chooses to.) I'd keep one pool around and use those dice for everything. Because, really, when a magician fries someone with a mother of a manaball, he should be in the same position as a sam unloading with an assault cannon - wide open for return fire. I see the combat pool as dividing your attention between different activities - dodging, aiming, kicking... Certainly, magicians may be generally more aware than mundanes about the world around them, but they don't need the extra attack dice. They could stand to be a little more vulnerable, given all the other perks they get. I hope I didn't sound too abrasive with my rant, it's just a sore subject for me. Years of playing Shadowrun online made me a bit cynical about the game balance. I've seen one too many ubermensch magicians played by very sad people. I should say that I enjoy playing magicians myself the most out of all the other archetypes in Shadowrun, but I prefer a more fair field for all archetypes, just to make the game more fun. Unfortunately, in all 3 editions of Shadowrun, magicians remained off the scale in power levels. Proof of that is the statistics on the various MUSH sites. On most of them, magicians are restricted in the same way visas and green cards are restricted in the United States. Otherwise there's too many of them coming in and the game becomes a magic la-la-land instead of Shadowrun. ;) |
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Mar 26 2005, 10:37 PM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Was that aimed at my post? If so, the reason is because those damnable color inserts seem to be the primary culprit for why the bindings of my sourcebooks go to hell within a couple of weeks of purchase. It's no coincidence that they're /always/ the first pages to fall out. They also don't serve any real purpose other than to hike printing costs (and thus our costs) up. So, in summary, they only prove to make the books more expensive, serve minimal purpose, and seem to ruin the book. At least in my experience they have. |
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Mar 26 2005, 10:52 PM
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#67
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Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
I've never had any problems with the inserts. When my books fall apart it's completely random and I like some of the inserts.
The critters inserts in SR2 is what hooked my gf on SR. :) |
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Mar 26 2005, 11:00 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Or, hell, just go with full color the whole way. The DnD core books are beautiful and will well outlast just about any SR book ever made.
Also, mad props to our comrade elf, as the kids say. Been waiting for someone else to say all that for some time. |
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Mar 26 2005, 10:53 PM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'd be ecstatic if it were full color, or if only colored in parts. It's the drastic change in material that seems to cause the problem. But whatevah. :) Just my personal request. I can make 'em, dammit! :D
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Mar 26 2005, 11:13 PM
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#70
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm not offended, you're just wrong ;)
Providing that you've got those spells. A mage's repertoire is finite.
Then it was a bad plan. This is almost as fallacious as "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid".
Anything the size of a molecule passes right through, so I think the team just drowned. If it helps any, they drowned in algae-free water. It doesn't cost that much to enviroseal most drones.
And if you've just spent six weeks on an epic bender, those spells won't help either. First off, I wasn't referring to a L-S wagon specifically, and there's absolutely no reason why a good Rigger's combat-wagon should be out of range to help them in an emergency.
But Riggers do have the luxury of staying in their combat-wagons if they built them properly and don't take jobs they aren't suited for.
What was that about being prepared? Like being prepared for him having someone with Masking watching his back? Or possibly an intermittent Astral patrol? Or maybe just the chance that he'll make his not-difficult-at-all test and notice the spell?
Funny, I get a feeling that I do. Rigger, remember? Those things hide real good in vans.
Unless they've as much as bothered to put you in a mage hood and stay a bit away from you. The second they're already going to be doing because of cranial bombs.
As a matter of fact, I have. Ever tried flying something with twelve dice and a -6 to all TNs?
Yes.
Except they won't unless the magician burns a lot of karma or cash on it, and they're stopped dead by wards.
If you're sensitive enough to notice that at twenty kilometers, you deserve to live. It's also not too late then with Watchers, because a mage can catch up. The drone can relay the info immediately rather than having to report back.
Unlike vehicle armor, they're vulnerable to Power increase from autofire. Unless the Elemental is seriously high-force, my money's on the Drone.
If they're powerful enough to survive the first salvo, odds are the mage only has one more favor, if that.
And one service each. What was that about going astral?
Gee, what was that stat that's really useful for Riggers? Was it Willpower?
And a lot less useful. ~J |
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Mar 26 2005, 11:34 PM
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#71
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
And this is one thing that really bugs me about casters in general, and shamans in particular. Although it *say* that magic is difficult to detect and subtle and crap, in practise it's really easy to notice all but the lowest Force spells, only getting more subtle if you have a high grade of initiation. Shamans have it even worse, with a net -3 to the same already-easy test. There is no way to make your magic less obvious except as a side-effect of upping your Magic Attribute, and there is no way to make your magic obvious when you Magic Attribute is high. The rule here was obviously not throught through very well. |
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Mar 26 2005, 11:43 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 22-March 05 From: vancouver Member No.: 7,215 |
I think people are forgetting the big weakness of mages in Shadowrun and the thing that evens them out with other "classes". That is DRAIN. Sure mages are powerful and highly useful, but drain adds up quickly and those negitive mods begin kicking in on all of their actions and target numbers.
It is also important to remember that shadowrun is a highly balanced game, probably the most balanced game around, and as soon as you begin changing even little things to match your own teams style of play, especially mixed teams (mages, streetsam, adapt, rigger all together) things can get out of wack quickly. In the system as it is presented, Mages are very rare, so are mage shops, magic items, etc... If you play a game where there are a lot of mages and magic flying everywhere and items cheap and easy to come by/make then yes, the StreetSam and rigger are going to be in trouble, unless you give them a lot of cash and acess to beta and deltaware to balance things out and keep them even with the mages. So, at least from my experience, what it comes down to is that if you stick to the rules and setting as it is presented in the core rules: low number of mages, high cost to buy magic items, lots of karma to improve and DRAIN being used as is should be (I can't tell you how many games I've joined in and drain has been almost nonexistent), then mages are pretty well balanced compared to a StreetSam. That is if the GM also keeps the StreetSam's in check by keeping to the rules for cyber availability, detection, legality, cost, etc... Once you begin letting things slide in ether direction: massive cash (Riggers and StreetSams get really powerful really quick (especially if they have acess to beta/deltaware)) or going the other way lots of Karma (mages/adapts get really powerful really quickly and dominate over the Streetsams and riggers), things can become a mess. So what does this all mean? Well if you are playing a game where the mages are kicking all the ass and doing all the jobs single handedly then you should probably start giving out cash and acess to the streetsams and riggers to balance things out. And remember the DRAIN. |
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Mar 26 2005, 11:46 PM
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#73
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Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
No! FanPro has started implementing a RP (Request Police), which means that personal requests are forbidden. :grinbig: ;) |
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Mar 26 2005, 11:50 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
I don't know why people can't see that mages are more powerful than any other class under the current system. I'm a bit inclined to conclude they aren't able to see the possibilities or they haven't played all that much.
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Mar 26 2005, 11:52 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Yes so highly balanced that deckers and ECCM rules are unusable. Yes mages are so rare as presented that they needed to coin the term "wagemage". Remember the brain DRAIN. |
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