 SR 4.0 suggestions and requests, Because we don't have a debate...yet |
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 Mar 27 2005, 12:12 AM
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#76
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
<withdrawn>
~J |
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Mar 27 2005, 12:20 AM
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#77
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
Please, mallet, read my previous post carefully. The drain is not an issue. At all. It doesn't take a math degree to figure out how to cast spells so you don't suffer any drain at all. It's all up to the magician. If he wants to hurt himself just like a weight lifter trying to lift something too heavy for him, he has that option, yes. But most magicians are smart enough to deliver spells that don't hurt them, only the enemy. The only thing GM can do about it is watch each dice roll like a hawk - but the magician's player doesn't need to cheat on those to get away with no drain. Most of drain TN's are 2's and 3's. It's very simple to predict how the dice will roll, add a few extra and you're safe. |
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Mar 27 2005, 01:03 AM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
'Cept for all those vaunted Force 6 and 10 spirits. |
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Mar 27 2005, 01:18 AM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
To be fair, it's not quite as cut and dried as you make it out to be. For most spells worth the casting, you're going to need 4-8 successes to avoid drain completely. With a TN of 3 and a base Willpower of 6 (because we're munching our mage here, and that's not meant as a critical comment so nobody get up in arms about it) you're already having to allocate a couple of dice from spell pool to play the averages and get the result you're after. Your pool dice refresh every turn, so if you've got a couple of actions you're dipping into your spell pool again. And indeed, probably again because you'll need extra dice for casting if you want to maintain even basic spell defence for your team. As long as a mage is riding the crest, he's doing okay. But it only takes one bad roll to start him on the slippery slope. And unlike any other character, that slope doesn't flatten out any time soon - no stim patches for you, old son, not without serious consequences. On a personal note, and feel free to stop reading at this point if you don't rate other people's experience, I've played and GM'd Shadowrun since 1st edition, and I've yet to notice any imbalance of the degree you believe exists. In fact, the most successful PC that has played in my games started life with no cyberware at all (and no bio, it wasn't available back then). Even today, all he has is a synaptic accelerator. He regularly played along magical types initiated to 3 or 4 levels, and nobody ever complained about power levels. |
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Mar 27 2005, 01:42 AM
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#80
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
Well, if you have no respect for Murphy's Laws, at least have some for Sun Tzu and his 'Art of War', which mentions this problem as well. :) Plans have a tendency to fail at the least fortunate moments. In such situations wins he who a) foresaw it and had a backup plan b) he who can improvise.
It's unfortunate that most night clubs require one to check the weapons and vehicles at the door, as opposed to letting you drive through and park it by the bar, across from the bartender. It's also unfortunate that some meetings with double crossing Johnsons had the audacity to go wrong right in the club - and that's disrespect to the host (even worse than parking the monster 4 by 4 truck in the bar). Sometimes a complex action is all the time you have to save the team (and your own ass)... I suppose you could play a paranoid rigger, like the legendary japanese swordsman Musashi, who wouldn't bathe for the fear of being assaulted while defenseless and unarmed. A rigger that never plugs out, never stops the engine, never has a personal life... and even then, you're not safe from marauding elementals manifesting inside your fortress on wheels.
He won't be making that test if he fails the perception test to spot the magician. And the magician can be casting the spell before the meet, from the roof of a skyscraper with the aid of a pair of good old-fashioned binoculars. Magicians, too, can prepare in advance. Speaking of which, their range puts any sniper rifle to shame.
Unfortunately, the vans don't fit everywhere. See above.
No dice roll will let your drone with a 1.2m diameter rotor fly through a 1m wide door.
Yes, that's the problem you see. It takes a magician to stop a magician. Fighting fire with fire. If you have a special sort of fire that can't be doused by anything other than the same sort of fire, then you have a problem. It's like having rock in rock-paper-scissors that can't be beat with anything other than a rock itself, and even then, it's a draw. People just stop playing with paper and scissors and that's precisely the problem I'm talking about. In Shadowrun, magicians tend to rock.
Notice shimmer of a non-manifest spirit at 20km through drone's sensors? Oh, that's um, erroneous. I direct you to the page 173 of Shadowrun 3rd edition. A mundane can detect an astral form going through them - the tingly sensation with a TN 10. Absolutely not through a camera or a drone's sensors - even when manifest!! Sure, there's the funky bacteria to spray to notice the thing at close range, but not at 20 clicks!
Yep, you're right there. A good burst can take one out, as can a water cannon if it's the right type. Unfortunately elementals tend to attack in six-packs and nature spirits tend to be a lot harder to spot.
Hey, the magician is out a 6k elemental, you're out a 15k drone. Nuyen for nuyen, elementals rock. Speaking of rock, seems to me that earth elementals (yes, the ones that can fly despite looking like trolls) are best suited for drone hunting. And nature spirits are even worse, with the power of concealment to hide their materialized form, and the power of accident to cause the drone to land rather unexpectedly and abruptly. And then there's the Lightning Bolt spell posessed by the Storm spirit... that can cast it without drain, over and over, so long as the shaman keeps asking for favors.
I understand that a charismatic enough rigger can do 6M Stun damage with 6-8 dice to roll vs likewise 6 dice of the force of the spirit attacking it in close combat. But then the other five spirits materialize, and having friends in the melee (+1 TN/-1TN per friend), his fate is sealed, even if he wasn't in the bathroom at the time. Remember, that even though you may try to use the force of personality to strike at the spirit, it won't bother to strike back at you with its force. It may suck you in with engulf, or even slap you around in hand-to-hand.
Watchers are like shadowrunners - cheap, disposable and naive. Drones, you try to save as much as you can - because they get costly faster than the spirits. That price - and the emotional attachment the rigger has for them - is their greatest weakness. Drones are severely limited by range, compared to the spirits and watchers. By this I mean the travel distance, and the flux rating. Drones are limited by fuel and ammo (Spirits and watchers have finite services and time, so it balances out). Drones are limited by travel speed. Spirits and watchers don't have that problem. Drones are a lot easier to notice - you don't need to hire a 'security consultant' magician to keep an eye out for them, and you don't need to panic when he gets beat down into a bloody pulp by a gang of 6 watchers. Drones can't detect spirits/watchers (unless spirits choose to reveal themselves). Spirits can detect drones (although poorly). Drones are limited by their pilot rating - their 'dog brain'. Watchers, too, have a 'dog brain' personality. Spirits, on the other hand, are fully sentient creatures. And the last nail in the coffin - the Remote Service. A particularly vengeful magician just might summon up an assassin elemental - just for you. It may take a few days or weeks or even a year to walk the Earth to find you, but it will not rest until you're done. While the magician, he can take a long vacation in Europe. Until the drones can become that independant (Ah'll be back!), it really isn't much of a contest. |
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Mar 27 2005, 01:47 AM
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#81
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Is the door also only 1 meter high? Yaw, Pitch and Roll are options for a vehicle in flight, you know. In fact, even if it is a 1 meter square door, there's aproximately 1.4m from corner to corner. |
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Mar 27 2005, 01:54 AM
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#82
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Technically, If you use that system (and I wouldn't), it should be Willpower + Intelligence (+ non-existant Magic) /3. |
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Mar 27 2005, 01:54 AM
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#83
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Because drones are only made of rotors, right? |
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Mar 27 2005, 02:04 AM
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#84
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
Force 6 and 10 elementals aren't being summoned during the run. That's the homework the magician does, and he sleeps it off before the big show. The shaman, on the other hand, is at a disadvantage with his one single available spirit, that has to be summoned within a few hours of the run, or, more often, smack in the middle of a firefight. There are several things he can do to reduce the difficulty of resisting the drain: centering, spirit foci, quickened or otherwise sustained charisma increase. Then there's the pain editor and the trauma damper... But even then, the shaman knows the risks and calls the shots, measuring carefully own ability. If he's feeling lucky, he might burn. But then again, for beginner shamans, a good rule of thumb is summon spirits equal to half their charisma in force (Force 3 for Charisma 6, Force 4 for Charisma 7-8 ), until they get into centering and higher grades of initiation, and go up in force only in case of an emergency or when they can rest. This is offset by the ability to improvise with spirit domains and powers. The nature spirits know a lot more "tricks" than elementals, so in certain situations it's better to have a force 4 nature spirit than a force 6 fire elemental. In contrast, a mage needs to think and plan ahead more with the types of spirits he binds. |
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Mar 27 2005, 02:16 AM
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#85
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
I think that maintaining spell defense is a futile act if you're trying to cast a spell at the same time (i.e. you get a crappy spell and a weak spell defense). Splitting your force isn't the way to go most of the time. So, if you suspect an enemy magician to try something, spend your action doing mundane attacks (throw a grenade maybe?) or hold action, and keep that spell pool on defense for the team. If you decide to cast something, then by all means, use the Force, Luke. :) The whole thing. Because the enemy magician will be using the entire spell pool for spell defense, and you need to break through. As far as dividing spell pool between drain and success - well, I see spell pool dice as freebies anyway, so if there are any left after you allocate enough to reduce the drain probability to near zero - yippie! It's like combat pool dice, except you get to keep combat pool for defense and fire your magic guns! And I rate other people's experience very much! And I know just the type of low-power PC who did the thing you're describing - instead of being ballsy and gung-ho, he played it smart and had lots of friends to do his bidding. The thing you mention about lack of imbalance I believe as well - it really doesn't surface all that much in a friendly table top game - when the players get along and they aren't out to get one another. In an online medium, when there are more players involved, and they play more or less anonymously, for some reason they tend to be at odds with one another and all sorts of rules loopholes surface up to be abused in pointless vendettas. The online games are a sort of a catalyst that help reveal the nuances of game disbalance. In other words, what 5 people playing the game together for a year will find lacking, 150 people playing the game for 3 months will find unbearable - because there'll be a lot more whining from all the people. It takes one jerk to kill off 2-4 players by abusing a rule and there you have it, another rules debate that ends with a house rule or a ban. :) A popular MUSH can host up to 1500 players, with up to 70 logged on simultaneously with 5-6 GMs running things in the background for them in a single persistent world. Unfortunately, the MUSHes and MUDs are slowly disappearing due to Everquest and WoW and other MMORPGs. I do realise that Shadowrun 3rd edition was never meant to be played online in a persistent world, but such an exposure does reveal interesting things when put into perspective. |
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Mar 27 2005, 02:35 AM
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#86
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well, as long as we're making up rules I *was* thinking of making it (INT+WIL+MAG)/2. Yes it's an across-the-board increase, but that's all to the good: first it parallels combat pool better, and second it slightly helps offset the fact that now most mundanes will be rolling roughly twice the number of dice on any given resistance test. |
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Mar 27 2005, 02:31 AM
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#87
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Nah, because only the rotor part is 1.2 meters wide. The rest can fit through the bottom corner of the door, usually. I'll admit it's not a perfect solution, but then neither is trying to get an elemental through an equal-Force ward, or even being able to "see" through the ward well enough to know where the target is. |
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Mar 27 2005, 02:44 AM
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#88
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I have no problem with that. You just didn't indicate an across-the-board change in the other post. :) I still wouldn't use the rule for mundanes though. |
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Mar 27 2005, 03:11 AM
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#89
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Craft kept aloft by helicopter-style rotors turn when they "roll". Trying to get a drone through a tight doorway will at the very least result in very high target numbers for the rigger (and probably only the rigger, since they can push vehicles beynd their normal limits. A normal driver probaly couldn't do it at all.), or more possibly, a crashed drone. |
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Mar 27 2005, 11:44 AM
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#90
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,986 |
I think it's a terrible idea, in that you'd need an entire party of mages to have a chance of injuring one shadowrunner with a spell. The mundanes will not be rolling twice the dice on any resistance roll, they'll be rolling (team members + 1) * the dice on any resistance roll, because there's nothing stopping you from stacking spell defence. |
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Mar 27 2005, 03:11 PM
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#91
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Er, except that, if you actually read my idea, you'd find out that it doesn't in fact work that way. Here I'll quote it for you, highlighting the relevant part:
The whole point here was to counteract the fact that mages have access to a sort of "mental" dice pool that mundanes don't have access to. As I see it, the main thing that makes mages unbalanced currently is their sole access to Spell Pool, rather like riggers are really powerful because of their access to Control Pool (which I'd also like to give non-riggers, but that's another argument.) In this proposal, mundanes and even aspected conjurers also get that same pool, but it's of limited solely for defense, rather like combat pool is of limited use for people without a single armed combat skill. |
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Mar 27 2005, 06:46 PM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137 |
I've got to say I don't really like the idea of mundanes getting a spell defense pool, I think of spell pool as being opened up to because of their fundamental understanding of the nature of magic (i.e. being magical).
I don't really agree that mages are too unbalanced. They tend to not be as fast (even with their broken inc. init. spell), which means they get shot fast. Their spells tend to have a higher TN than shooting people does. I agree that drain rarely effects the caster, but shooting someone in the head never does damage to you, so I figure the chance of taking some damage if you push to far is fine. Yes it takes a mage to stop a mage, that's the entire concept of magic and magical security. On the other hand, it takes hiring a contracted security mage once to ward a place for a year and a day, most places that need it can afford at least that. I've also found that at least in my game if the security forces don't concentrate most of their fire on the tweaked as hell street sam, they die a lot faster. My parties mage is definitely not my biggest worry (he's powerful and all, but not as dangerous as the sammy). |
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Mar 28 2005, 01:17 AM
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#93
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Really, can anyone think of a game where mages at higher levels of power couldn't just obliterate everything in sight?
And Dawn - your campaign has some massively powered characters - far in excess of anything I've seen in game. I liken the "double digit initiates" to tac nukes - I'm sure they exist, but don't show up often enough to be an issue. As for being flexible - yes, mages can be amazingly flexible, depending on what sorts of spells the mage has acquired. Don't even get me started on mages and astral perception in first and second edition - once a mage had a chance to examine your aura, you could not hope to hide from them. But I've yet to see a starting mage that couldn't be cut in half by an assault rifle and was still vulnerable to the same threats as every other PC - gas, smoke, explosives, high-vee lead and the like. I've seen a lot of people who look at mages from the long-term POV and not realize that a character has to survive a lot of bumps in a SR's career in order to reach that point in his or her career. -Siege |
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Mar 28 2005, 02:39 AM
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#94
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Our group has run into tac-nukes twice, but only once into a double-digit initiate :grinbig: |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:57 AM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
:D On a completely different note than everyone else here has said, I would like to propose a new type of Nature spirit. It would be a spirit of man.
A Spirit of the Open Road, whose domain is the highways and interstates between cities. It would manifest usually as a hitchhiker or truck driver. I would see it having powers like Accident, Confusion, Concealment, Guard, and Movement. My apologies for the rough nature of this post. My first time doing it. |
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Mar 28 2005, 04:06 AM
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#96
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I agree with this, and have used something similar in games in the past. |
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Mar 28 2005, 04:23 AM
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#97
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Man, this would be a great idea. I like it.
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Mar 28 2005, 07:28 AM
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#98
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
This is an idea right up there with the George Forman Grill in that you can look at it, and wonder to yourself "Why didn't anyone think of this before?" :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: |
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Mar 28 2005, 07:54 AM
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#99
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Damn George Foreman grill is hard to clean. I'm suprised it took so long for them to come out with one that the grill plates come off for cleaning. But yes, again, the Spirit of the Open Road is great.
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Mar 28 2005, 10:44 AM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
When they get around to Bestiaries and anything like Prime Runners again, I'd quite like to see a selection of free spirits with proper NPC treatment. But that's a really minor request.
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