A Heretic's Question, What if it is the rule set? Options

[Dizzo Dizzman]

Out of all the RPGs I've played I've consistently thought that Shadowrun had the best basic rules set. And after three revisions I think it has consistently gotten better not worse.

Granted, I still think that Matrix and many of the Rigger Rules need a serious overhaul, but when it comes to the bread and butter rules of character creation, combat, and magic, I can only think of fixes on the margins that would make them better (i.e. better damage for light pistols, better rules for cyberlimbs, auto successes for knockdown tests, ect.).

And with any rules overhaul, the law of unintended consequences will prevail. SR4 will have plenty of problems that will need errata or new editions to fix.

So in all seriousness, what is Shadowrun's greatest asset? Is it the basic rules system that has been gradually improved and the wrinkles ironed out since SR1 or is it the game world?

[Fortune]

The setting, without a doubt! I play and run Shadowrun because of the game world ... the rules are nice, but secondary.

[DragginSPADE]

I'd vote for "both" if that was an option. The world is certainly one of the best developed RPG environments out there, but the rules have also always been a plus for me. Magic in Shadowrun has always been more internally consistent than almost any other RPG out there.

[Dizzo Dizzman]

Fortune, that is what I thought too when I heard about SR4. However, after hearing about all the discussions here on dumpshock about SR4 I'm slowly beginning to change my mind. Granted, nobody (who's talking) knows enough about SR4 to say if it will be better or worse than SR3. But, whenever somebody starts talking about what the changes could be like they fall into one of three camps:

1) Fundamental changes to the system (i.e. adding attributes to skills for tests, attribute checks, one roll combat, completely changing the deckers/riggers, ect.).
2) Changes on the margin (i.e. fixing cyberlimbs, no geasa for magic lost to cyberware, ect.)
3) Changes to the Game World

I've come to the conclusion I pretty much hate everything I've heard regarding number one (with the exception of changing deckers) and loved most of what I've heard regarding number two. I've also generally like what I've heard about three from the Shadowrun website, but nothing that really sparks the same kind of intense passion.

Now I'm really starting to ask myself...what is it that I like about Shadowrun? And I think the answer, for myself, is that the rules were just as important to me as the game world itself if not more so.

FanPro has a big challenge on their hands if they're planning fundamental revisions to the rule system. Toping the SR3 system is a very difficult task. I wish them luck!!!

[Dizzo Dizzman]

DragginSpade:

Sorry I didn't add a "Both" column. After I posted it, I realized that I should have, but by then it was too late.

[Fortune]

Oh well ... I'd play Shadowrun even if it used White Wolf's rules set, and I'd probably play it if it used d20 (although I'd prefer it didn't). I love the world, and as I said, the rules are secondary to me.

[DragginSPADE]

[GunnerJ]

I'm not honestly all that attatched to the setting, even though it is cool and stands apart from others. Personally, I just think the d6 mechanics, with the built-in degrees of success and whathaveyou, is brilliant. While there are games that mix high tech and magic in their setting, it seems SR's mechanics are unique (although there are some basic similarities to White Wolf's system). Yes, there's porblems, but it'd be sad to see the basic Roll-x-dice-against-a-TN-and-count-successes thing go.

[psykotisk_overle...]

The game world is the most important to me.
Even if they'd originally made it a D20 setting I'd still play it (probably), but I wouldn't buy a D20 version of the rules today (should anyone publish such a horror)
But the system is ok too, better than most. (better than D&D, D och D(Yes, that's actually a different game), WoD and the current WHFRPG, at least)

[Charon]

Setting, without a doubt.

The D6 system, while functional isn't all that. It can't be compared to D20 because it is another type of system altogether. But in its class, SR D6 isn't as good as the WWD10 in the later systems like Trinity for example (although the current D10 for WOD are a step backward IMO)

[SirBedevere]

For me too the setting is more important than the rules system. I do like the rules system though. The multiple d6 system is I think a good one although it is in need of revision particularly making deckers (or whatever they end up being called) and riggers easier to play.

The setting is wonderfully detailed and very important to me. IMHO the only setting to come close to Shadowrun is Traveller. Keep the setting guys!

[Arethusa]

Where's my 'neither' option?

Law of unintended consequences? Where the hell are you getting this? There is no such law.

And, really, if you think the SR3 rules are great and problem free, either you're very new or fell down and hit your head on something very hard.

[Straw Man]

There are rules for piloting suborbitals.

There are no rules for installing the maglock you purchased out of the base book.

I have high hopes for the new system, because if it weren't for the theme, I'd have thrown my RCD in the river a long time ago. Granted, it has it's flaws, but if you look, you'll find a place where you can play the future you wanna play.

[Dizzo Dizzman]

The Law of Unintended Consequences...its not a law of physics, but it certainly does happen. All it means, is when you do something, anything, there will be consequences you did not intend. I honestly thought it was a fairly common colloquialism and I wouldn't need to explain it, but I was mistaken. Which lead to the unintended consequence of getting a slammed by Arethusa. ;)

I did say that the SR3 rules are great, I didn't say they were problem free. I said they were the best rules I've seen for a gaming system and that all the proposed changes I've heard have either been horrible or changes on the margins of the system. The only exception being the rules for decking, which do need a fundamental overhaul.

I maybe be paranoid, or spending way too much time on dumpshock, but I get the feeling that we are not talking about a clean-up exercise on the Shadowrun rules or just an overhaul on a subset of the rules (i.e. decking/hacking or rigging). I get the feeling that the "streamlining" process will fundamentally change the rules. I would love for the developers to come out and same I'm wrong, but they don't seem to want to let the cat out of the bag early.

As for how long I've been playing...I played briefly when it was SR1. I really got into Shadowrun during SR2 and have played off and on with SR3. So I've had experience with all three versions of Shadowrun. No system is perfect, but the core rules set for Shadowrun is about as good as it gets IMHO.

I take that back, I do spend way too much time on dumpshock.

[Kagetenshi]

I voted rules not so much because the rules are necessarily more important, but because I knew everyone else was going to vote gameworld and I wanted to cast my vote in support of the rules. A reworking of how they're implemented, an expansion of where they can be used (lack of maglock installation is a problem with the implementation of the rules, not the basic rules themselves. Something like White Wolf's TN10 means skill doesn't matter is a basic flaw in the rules), but a major change would meet with significant disapproval.

~J

[Solstice]

If the 6th world was D20 it would be just another game setting. But because of the rules system, it has elevated itself to become something a D20 could never become. Dark, gritty, realistic.

[Lucyfersam]

I agree that they system is very important, falling only slightly behind the setting. WW's d10 system works great for them, I don't think it would work for SR without turning SR into WW. The attribute range in SR is an important factor, and doing the WW attribute+skill style tests with that kind of attribute range just doesn't work. I've liked most of the changes to magic I've seen supported, not a huge fan of the changes to skill rolling or the abandonment of pools I've seen. Pretty much at this point I'm at "wait and see what they start posting in the Developer's Blog." That will hopefully at least give us some hints what direction they are going with the skill system so we can make some informed comments.

[RunnerPaul]

[Mortax]

I love both, to a high degree. I voted for the setting, as I enjoy in more. As for the rules, I could deal with changeing it some, but going to a D20 would cause me to never even consider paying attention to further rule changes. I want shadowrun, not D20 Urban Arcana.

[Critias]

I'm genuinely confused by people who like White Wolf's d10 system. They based it off a fundamentally flawed premise, in terms of probability, and built from there. Their die mechanic simply doesn't match up to their example scores (a five in a skill is only good because they SAY it's good, not because it gives you decent odds of doing anything difficult), their creation system forces you to make a slanted, one dimensional character (passably good at something, decent at something else, sub par at whatever else there is)...

But most of all there's the probability issue, at the root of which is their ridiculous "rule of 1" compared to their "rule of 10." This has been partially fixed in a few of their systems (Aberrant, and I think Exalted), where a 10 isn't just "roll again," at least...but...it's still a flawed mechanic. A base diff of 6+, with a 1 taking away a success and (unless you have a specialty, a 10 doing nothing, if you do have an appropriate specialty, a 10 only allowing a reroll) 10's doing what they do...it's...ugh. Horrible. Horrible, horrible. They then try to add a bonus-to-target-number, which just screws it up even more -- with the end result being that at the top of the difficulty scale, you're just as likely to stab yourself in the foot as to pull off a called shot to an enemy in melee (regardless of your skill level).

Ridiculous system. They have/had a neat setting and undeniably a flavor and style all their own...but...their system is crazy. And applying that same difficulty-based die mechanic to damage rolls was utterly ridiculous. I can think -- just off the top of my head -- of three seperate occasions where someone was solidly hit with a shotgun at point blank range and took no damage from it (normal human, normal shotgun, no armor; no damage), due to damage dice coming up low. Craziness.

[creepwood]

[Straw Man]

[Charon]

[Sepherim]

As for me, I go for setting. I'm a background-freak, and I love all those details that make the Shadowrun world come alive.

If I were to signal a thing I like specially in the system, though, I'd say that I love the personalization level you can achieve. I know no system in wich you can personalize your character, your equipment, your lifestyle... but, furthermore, the creation system allows you to create a character really as you like, with no impositions such as classes, clans, or whatever. If you want to be a dwarf decker-mage, go on! Whatever option is possible if the master gives you enough points!

I really hope that the point-based creation sistem becomes the basic one.

[hermit]

Background. It's what makes the world come alive. Rules are just there to give players a feeling of the GM not being able to screw them over as they please.