Dice pools in SR4-yes or no?, Yet another pointless poll.. Options

[Dan Difino]

The poll seems straightforward enough, do you like or dislike dice pools (combat, control, sorcery, etc.) and want to see them in Shadowrun 4th edition?

[Capt. Dave]

I like dice pools. I like the concept, I like the mechanics. Dice pools allow a little bit of extra "punch" to various situations, and allow more decision making freedom, especially in combat.

[psykotisk_overle...]

I like how the dice-pools work in the current system. One of the reasons is how they incorporate attibutes into the rolling, wich is why dice pools might not be as important in SR4, seeing as rumour has it that they're somehow incorporating the attibutes in some other manner.
But the flexibility, and ability to focus on some actions make the pools one of the good parts of the system.

[hermit]

I like dice pools, the way they work, and the tactical element they introduce. I hope they won't be streamlined away.

[The_Eyes]

Same here. One thing I don't like about dice pools, though, is how they enforce a classist mentality: only spellcasters have access to/use from a Spell Pool; only riggers have access to a Control Pool. Why should a Rigger be the only one to get his Reaction to use as a dodge pool while in a car, or a spellslinger be the only one to use his Int/Wis to get extra dice for defending against spells?

Actually that last one is based on a flawed assumption; currently it's the Sorcery skill which is used to defend against spells, instead of the corresponding dice pool like it is with every other realm of combat (Hacking Pool for Matrix combat, Combat Pool for meatbod combat, Control Pool for vehicle combat). But it *should* be Spell Pool that defends against spells, to make it more like every other use of pool in defense.

[psykotisk_overle...]

Good point Eyless blonde...


So hermit, think they'll ever streamline devs away?

[Grinder]

They are good, add some tactical moments and are easy to use/keep track of. They should make their way into 4th edition imo.

[Arethusa]

[psykotisk_overle...]

Sorry, I did of course mean "the eyes"
Noone else ever mix those up?

Edit: Ah, it's becuase "the eyes" is pretty new here that i didn't recognize him, and mixed him up with eyeless.
Welcome to the boards.

[Eyeless Blond]

Er, actually it was me. I'm using the nick for a game on the other forum, and forgot to switch back over.

Also I've been making posts to that same effect in two or three other threads, so it's not surprising you made the connection.

[psykotisk_overle...]

Great, maybe I'm psychic to?

I think I'll continue refferring to you as eyeless, even when posting as "the eyes", great way to make people wonder.

[Dizzo Dizzman]

As a SR player I love the dice pools. It allows me to get very strategic. As a GM, they can be a pain during large combats. All in all, I would like to see them back in SR4.

[mfb]

dice pools are a GM's best friend. they allow you to scale your NPCs to be tougher or weaker, as required. players getting their asses kicked by a few unlucky rolls on their part (or lucky rolls on yours)? have your NPCs start using way too much CP on dodge rolls, and not enough on attacks. to easy? allocate pools more precisely--fudge the numbers a bit, give the NPCs +1cp each. dice pools allow you to control combat and other situations with very little effort.

[Critias]

Dice pools are also a player's best friend. In some games all you do is toss a single die and cross your fingers -- in Shadowrun, in almost any truly critical success test your character is going to make, there's something you can do to try and stack things in your favor. You might blow all your combat pool for an over-the-hostage's-shoulder headshot, you might spend karma on a crucial soak roll when running across open ground to grab a downed teammate, you might sink all your spell pool and spend karma on that absolutely vital countermagic attempt... whatever it is your character tries to be good at, you've got the added flexibility and ability of a die pool to use, fluidly, to be better at it when it counts.

As someone who started playing RPG's with Shadowrun, and only later moved on to class based level based pool-less systems? I can safely say the flexibility Die Pools give is one of the major things I've always loved about SR (that and grades of success, and the lack of classes, and...).

[Jérémie]

I voted yes, but the questions are not well written.

I like the concept, I don't like the execution. Hopfully SR4 will get over the "use 20 d6 for a test" syndrom, so these will not be dice pools per se but I hope the concept remains.

[DrJest]

Love dice pools, for all the reasons already mentioned.

Also, I don't use dice pools for every NPC. Supporting Artists (security guards, gangers) don't get them - these guys are supposed to be hay before the runners' harvester. Minor Stars (leaders of the above) use the Threat Rating system. It's only Major/Guest Stars that get the full dice pools.

[Ol' Scratch]

I like the concept of dice pools, but found the execution wanting.

I'm glad they're getting rid of them in their current incarnation because they really were a pain to keep track of (especially when playing with people in a pick-up game that you don't really know or have a reason to trust), though part of me will still miss them because I'm a strategic gamer at heart... and they were just another tool I could use to get the job done.

Now if they simply had a single dice pool -- some kind of Luck Pool -- that you used, I would be cool with it. It would just be another attribute to keep track of, which is easy enough. It's having half a dozen different ones, one of which (Karma Pool) functions like no other one does, that was the biggest problem.

[RunnerPaul]

[torzzzzz]

I put no,

1) because though the dice pools are good they are a slowing factor in the game, especially combat!

2) I have GM'ed my first few games and it is a night mare for me as a new gm to keep track of things! in combat with remebering all the rules my players dice and the people attacking the PC's!

I am sure once i get to grips with this i will not have a problem with the dice pools!

torz x :D

[Ol' Scratch]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Darn. I'll definitely miss Combat Pool if nothing like it makes it into SR4.

[mfb]

i can understand simplifying dice pools, and even getting rid of some of them--decking and rigging are being combined, so a single hacking pool (whee, no name change!) should be sufficient for both activities. you could even get rid of the "dice" part completely--make it, say, a pool that can be spent to lower TNs, or something. but the ability to add oomph to important rolls is one of the truly high points of SR's system.

[Rev]

Yea dice pools rock.

Though, like many other people, when gming I don't use them for less important npc's. Instead I use an aspected (ie combat, magical, rigging, professional etc) threat rating so I don't have to keep track of thier pools, but they arent just rolling extra dice on every single test as the threat rating rules at one point suggested (thus giving all npc's spell defense). Since a main goal is to make the game easier for new gm's and players going back toward threat rating is probably a very good idea, seems like half the experienced sr players do this anyway.

I also never give less important npc's karma pool. Karma pool exists to give charachters and important npc's a bit of a hedge against bad luck. As gm I don't need every security guard and summoned spirit to have that hedge. It doesn't matter if they have a bad roll and die. It's just lame gm cheating to have every doofus you run into blowing thier (always full) karma pool on the only two or three rolls they will make in their existance while the players have to decide which of dozens of difficult tests to use thier's on.

I imagine they are to some extent doing this, but a good way to find what rules can be safely tossed on the burning pile or optionalized is to observe which rules are most commonly ignored.

[mfb]

as i understand it, threat rating was simply added to every die roll the NPC made, right? instead, threat ratings should refresh every round, like other dice pools. that way, the GM still has the leeway that pools give, but he's not stuck tracking quite so many.

[Spookymonster]

I like dice pools for their tactical flexibility, but I'd prefer a more generic set of dice pools. Instead of combat/spell/hacking/etc. applying to specific skills and/or tests, have pools based on pairs of attributes and and let any linked skill draw from them:

Power pool (Str + Cha): represents a character's force of presence
Health pool (Bod + Wil): represents a character's overall constitution
Speed pool (Qui + Int): represents the character's ability to perceive and react to their environment

Rather than one big combat pool, different combat tests would draw from different pools, e.g.:
- resisting damage and drain would draw from the Health pool
- firearms attacks, dodging, and hacking test draw from the Speed pool
- melee attacks and social tests would use the Power pool

Magic would either need to keep its own pool (which doesn't seem quite fair) or reworked a bit (perhaps draw from the Power pool, with TN penalties if the base attributes aren't 100% natural?).

Refreshing would need a little rework as well. Otherwise, every non-combat test would use the entire available pool every time.

Dunno... just a thought.