 My SR4 opinions, everyone else is doin' it., Don't you want to be popular? |
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 Mar 29 2005, 02:23 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166  |
So far, from what I know about the upcoming SR4 this is what I like/dislike... These are my opinions, feel free to comment.
I think this is an unnessary change and "decking" is part of Shadowrun. Hacking sounds like a bad movie made in the 90's. Also, what are they replacing the cyberdeck with? Are all deckers Otaku?
This can be good or bad. I reserve judgement until I have more info. P.S. Dunkelzahn should not come back. He's on the metaplanes making sure no more Horrors cross over too early.
Of course this sucks. I'm poor and don't want to buy new stuff.
I'm glad they won't be re-writing history, or anything else like that. I'm just worried that somebody is going to get the idea that the world should be redone. A new war breaks out and completely changes governments and boarders. I can see the possibility.
That's fine. I think most Shadowrun players have access to the internet.
I never really used them anyway. I sort of did with Stealth, but that's about it.
Everyone hates the priority system, but I like it. I would like to see options instead of "It is a point based system". I don't care for Becks myself, but heck, toss it in. Options are good.
It was already moving this way. I don't mind it (Other than that hackers thing). So, there we are. To sum it up: It sounds okay so far, Hackers is a lame movie and I'm poor. Agree? Disagree? |
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Mar 29 2005, 03:42 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
In every campaign I've ever run, the decker in the team ALWAYS worked his butt off trying to find a way within the rules to deck on the fly, without being left back at the doss plugged into the wall. If the new decker/hacker rules allow wireless hacking, it will at least keep me from having to make a new piece of gear every time I start a campaign.
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Apr 5 2005, 12:00 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
That takes a load off.
This sounds like the way White Wolf does it. I didn't think there was a problem before. Having run both run V:TM and SR, I preferred SR's way of dice pooling.
Once again this sounds like WW mechanics, except using D6's instead of D10's. It's ok, but this did not need fixing. "If it ain't broke.."
This is about the same and din't need fixing, so this is good. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:18 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I agree, Decking is a pain. It is the thing that needs fixing, but I think it's the ONLY thing that needs fixing. I've never had a problem with mages, riggers, street sams, or adepts. It seems like Fanpro is dumbing down the rules. One thing I enjoyed about SR was that the rules were a little complex. Most people who play this game are intelligent (certainly not all). When you're talking to someone about it and they say, "I just don't understand the rules." You kinda chuckle because you're smarter than they are. And the thing I hate most is that it is a good business decision. By dumbing down the rules, younger players are attracted. A business needs younger players to stay alive. The most popular games among kids are the easy ones. D&D and WOD come to mind. But, I don't need to like it. |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:18 PM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, thing is, you can always add totally optional expansion rules to make the game as complex as you'd like it, but the basic, fundamental mechanics need to be simple if you're going to attract a wide player base. Which face it, keeps the game alive. There are just plain way too many people who are not playing Shadowrun simply because the rules are too complex. Dumpshock is only one of many roleplaying sites I visit, and one of the few SR-specific ones. You mention SR on one of the general RPG forums and people say "Oh, Shadowrun? Neat game, but my group refused to play it. The rules are a mess."
And yeah, you're never going to be able to put in a mechanical change to a game that everyone is going to like. That's wishful thinking. The idea is to get one that will not change the game too much, yet also get those people who won't pick up a Shadowrun book to reconsider. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:40 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Rajaat - You're obviously coming into this with the preconceived notion that the current system is good enough, which might be true for many fans, but as has been pointed out elsewhere (quite eloquently) doesn't mean Shadowrun can survive as a viable game system in the long term as the fan-base drops out and ages. FanPro needs to bring in new blood and that means addressing a problem you're obviously not recognizing even exists in your mind. Not the basis for the most balanced debate...
One man's "dumbing down", is another man's "streamlining". If the new system is more intuitive, less complex, more internally consistent, resolves faster and brings in people who were put off by SR3's "overcomplexity" then the "dumbing down" will have paid off. Rather than looking strictly at Dumpshock's rather biased hardcore fan-base I suggest people take a long hard look at other RPG forums out there for SR-related posts and see what the single most repeated criticism is. |
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Apr 5 2005, 09:48 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
Wow, I never thought I'd ever be quoting myself. I agree it's a good business decision. I hate that I have to type that. I wish I could type, "Fanpro is crazy! This is going to bomb!", but I'm not going to. Why? Because it's a good business decision. I still don't have to like it. |
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Apr 5 2005, 09:55 PM
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#8
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I don't agree that it is the right biz decision. I was 16, as was all my friends when I picked up SR1. And if you think the SR3 rules are complicated...
I still think a SR3 Revised would have been the way to go. A whole new ruleset was not needed. |
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Apr 5 2005, 09:14 PM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's you, Shadow. there are hundreds of thousands of would-be SR players on other boards that disagree with you.
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Apr 5 2005, 10:55 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Amen!
Hundreds of thousands?? Wow. I didn't think you could get hundreds of thousands SR players to agree on anything. Sorry. I may buy that the current fan base is split on the subject. I'll even buy that there are a lot of fans out there that want to play, and don't because of the rules. (And I think that they are just being lazy. The rules aren't that bad.) But I don't buy 'Hundreds of thousands' want a complete rewrite of the rules. |
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Apr 6 2005, 12:13 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
The SR3 system is more complicated than SR1 was - especially in the areas of decking and rigging.
I for one will be glad to see a more streamlined system, especially in these two areas. |
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Apr 6 2005, 12:41 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
*Enters into personal story mode*
I was an RPG nerd for years. I played Baulder's Gate and loved it. We were in love with AD&D so we thought. Me and a few pals picked up 3E D&D in its pretty little starter-set case. We hadn't a damn clue. I wound up using the Baulder's Gate guides and spell lists as much as I could in a haphazard GM attempt. By the time I picked up the manuals (if nothing else I loved reading them) D&D had been a headache. Then I got to college and heard the name Shadowrun. It sounded good, so we made charries. I loved it. I got the rules fairly quick, though I still don't even know half of them for anything but mages. I still occasionally have to make my own rule because I don't get the officials, but I tend to get them right and when I make my own its because it makes sense. Now I'm also playing V:TM and I like that too. Its complex in some places but at the same time its more streamlined than SR. If I want all thats bad in SR I think of Vehicle combat. As for my limited Vampire experience, I think of martial arts techniques and the like. My opinion - Some streamlining is good, and I'll have to see the system to know if its better or worse, but it can also be "equally good overall." |
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Apr 6 2005, 02:30 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
The main problem SR4 will address is stagnentation.
The games I have are stagnent(In player terms). I can't get new players to play due to the complexity of the rules. They genrally don't want to play riggers or deckers due to them having a large book each. And mages also seem a bit overwhelming to most and therefore they genrally plump for some form of sam. If the new rules sort this it can only be good. Don't get me wrong I love the SR3 rules but change was needed. If they can spead combat up so it doesn't take half the night i'll also be happy. My only concern is the 5 years background "jump". But I haven't had a problem with any of the plots before, even though some were better than others, so i'll keep the faith. The main problem i'm sensing from around dumpshock is a fear of change, complete kneejerk fear of change. I got it but I can also see what they're trying to achieve. Yes the bottom line may be money and more players but it's ultimatly a good thing. Sorry if I have offended anyone, this is just the impression I get. |
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Apr 7 2005, 10:14 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I have people at work that keep bothering me about my game. I have to tell people No constantly. You can come up here and have some. I've never had a problem with combat taking forever. I've heard several people mentioning this, but I've never had this problem. I'm very afraid of the background jump. It can go well, but it can also go very bad. Oh, and I agree Deckers are complicated. |
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Apr 7 2005, 10:33 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
On one hand I have to agree with you. I never had any real trouble with deckers and riggers being different. But then I never got much of a chance to play and I know that the riggers in the group always spent the majority of their character creation time on building the deck. And even then once play got started we were constantly looking at the rules to figure out what ACIFS he should be rolling against. It got to a point where I just had too many other considerations to deal with in the game so I told the decker that he should memorize his utilities. Without a deck a lot of that is gone....but I always did like the feel of deckers.
I can agree with this 100%. Although i'm not poor I it sucks having to buy new books. Especially since I have every single SR3 book there is. But I guess it is part of the business and this isn't the first (nor the last) time. |
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Apr 8 2005, 02:02 AM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 14-March 05 Member No.: 7,158 |
I'm kind of a newb when it comes to Shadow. I've been playing for about nine or ten months now, whereas a lot of you guys have been playing for years. I haven't played using SR1 or even SR2 rules. I probably should just shut my yap right now.
Judging by the way everyone's talking about SR4, it doesn't exactly sound bad, but having just figured out most of the rules from SR3, I don't want to have to go back and start over again. SR3 made sense to me in the way it worked. The randomness the system created is what made me want to play and it felt like and RPG should in creating a fictional world that real people interact with. The decker/hacker issue I feel is something that was kind of happening anyway as our groups decker just bought a VCR and a couple drones to be more effective in combat, and I agree with just about everybody that making all of SR3 obsolete is bullcrap. Oh, hey NightHaunter, bout time I see some Iced Earth fans out there. |
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Apr 8 2005, 02:25 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
ok ok ok.....gonna state this and take cover cause i know its gonna throw a lot of you in an uproar:
deckers, while i liked the concept they are just to hard for most GM's i have found to work into the system, doing the deckers part takes a while a lot of the time and this is time the rest of the group is sitting back twittling their thumbs and BSing, what in gametime takes about 20- 30 seconds, takes 2-3 hours, to the point that most GM's that i have played with have either outlawed deckers from their games or play them seperately from the PC's at different times or as NPC's personally i find the deckers to be really the only broken thing about this game secondly, dont get me started on streamlining, a lot of it is a bunch of BS in of itself, my workshop just went through some kind of "streamlining" and i already forsee the problems we will possibly face, but everyone higher up than me on the food chain has decided that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, i cringe at the word streamlining. <remainder of content deleted by user due to ranting nature> and finally, while i agree that vehicular combat and drone combat is a bit difficult and takes a lot of tests, and could be fixed up a little, saving time in combat scenes only takes a little common sense and people knowing the limitations of their characters as much as they know their own limitations, my character isnt gonna try making a pistol shot at a hundred yards, its ludicrous, on the other hand my teams sniper should have already taken that threat out, and if he hasnt and the assault rifle guys havent then i will wait till he hits about 50 yards and use my blasted shotgun, know the rules that govern your character and their weapons, memorize them and it will save time |
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Apr 9 2005, 09:07 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
On deckers: Amen. On streemlining: I still think it'll be good, but only time will tell. On rigging and vehicles in general: To many unecassary tests, yes. Plus a vehicle combat cripples everyone but the rigger. |
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Apr 10 2005, 02:32 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I agree, deckers are complex, I just don't want to see a name change. I agree that streamlining could be good, but so far it sounds like they're "fixing" a bunch of stuff that wasn't broken in the first place. I've never had a problem with vehicle combat, but I've house ruled it a bit. I don't think it cripples everyone, but the rigger. The other players can shoot or cast spells at the on coming vehicles. Please explain a bit about what you mean by "cripples" though, I may have misunderstood. |
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Apr 10 2005, 02:58 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 22-March 05 From: vancouver Member No.: 7,215 |
You know I don't really care about the rule changes that much, if they are good then I'll use them, if their not then I'll stick with SR3 rules. Doesn't matter that much to me. Same with name changes... WHO CARES? Use whatever name you want in your game.
I am looking forward to the advance in the timeline. It sounds great. Plenty of new storylines and plots are good. I would also love to see how some of the existing storylines tie-up and "what happens next." All in all, I personally don't see a need to change the rules, but if a forth edition is what it takes to kick shadowrun back into high-gear amongst the rpging crowd then I say bring it on. |
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Apr 10 2005, 05:37 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
you know what, i agree with you there, if its what it takes, do it, but dont do such a fraggin big revision on the entire game play system, all through the edition changes its mostly been small changes, a particular section at a time, this time its time to change the way that the deckers and riggers are played, change that and only that
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Apr 11 2005, 11:07 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
I don't mind a name change for deckers but hackers is kinda lame. By cripples I mean waiting for the rigger to have an action and if you have a action before him you lose it. |
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Apr 11 2005, 06:40 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 5-April 05 Member No.: 7,292 |
Fanpro is in a win-win situation.
By using a simplified rule set for SR4, they will grab all those who were not playing SR because of the rules. For players like me, who kinda like mechanics in SR3, we will keep playing SR (still my favorite setting !!!) with the old mechanics but will mostly buy sourcebooks (if they are not too SR4 mechanics focused...). |
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Apr 11 2005, 10:57 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I believe I will also still be running SR3 and purchasing just the setting books. However, a five year jump is huge. I'm still in year of the Comet. So, I probably won't be buying them soon. I'm still going to have to say I hate the name change. Hackers is lame. Deckers has a SR feel, that's what it's all about. It's like changing Street Samurai to Street Fighter. |
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Apr 12 2005, 01:08 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
HA-DO-KEN!
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: |
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