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FlakJacket
post Apr 1 2005, 08:43 PM
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What do people think about the idea of modifying ritual magic so that you could do it by yourself? At the minute you've got the current system where you can combine with other magicians to spread the load when casting. Magic's also pretty much an all or nothing and instantaneous thing - you try to cast the spell and it either happens or doesn't happen straight away.

My idea was that you could do a kind of ritual magic by yourself where the longer you take you could either lower the target number or drain for the spell. Gives you the chance of possibly casting higher level spells than you normally could but is offset by the fact you've got to use a ritual circle or lodge and ritual sorcery materials over several hours or more.
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Ecclesiastes
post Apr 1 2005, 09:11 PM
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I love the idea actually.
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Pthgar
post Apr 1 2005, 09:11 PM
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Time for Zero Drain Ritual Spell (Solitary): 15 minutes for every level of force up to your magic rating, 1 hour for every level above your rating.
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UpSyndrome
post Apr 1 2005, 09:27 PM
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Reminds me of epic spellcasting in that other game. As such, I see the potential for abuse.

-Joe
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Grinder
post Apr 1 2005, 09:52 PM
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Everything in SR has the possbility to be abused by a "creative" player. ;)

I like the idea.
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Backgammon
post Apr 1 2005, 10:24 PM
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FlackJack, you already can do ritual magic by yourself. You don't HAVE to be 2+ mages. It's a great way to sustain spells for a long time.
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Dizzo Dizzman
post Apr 1 2005, 11:33 PM
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I like lowering the drain idea, but not lowering the target numbers. Lowering target numbers opens up the possibility of casting really potent physical buffing spells and then using quickening or some other device to make it permanent.
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Kanada Ten
post Apr 1 2005, 11:52 PM
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I'm thinking something like every hour adding a die up to the circle or lodge rating for either drain or casting?
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 1 2005, 11:59 PM
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I'm hoping for something along those lines. Ritualized magic (as opposed to group magic and screw-you-over-from-safety magic, which is what those rules really represent) would be a great addition to the game both as far as storytelling and character creation goes.
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Pthgar
post Apr 2 2005, 12:20 AM
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Have any of you have read Jim Butcher's Dresden Files? The main character (Harry Dresden, wizard P.I.) does two types of spells.
Invocation is quick and dirty spell casting, fireballs and stuff, very tiring.
The other is like ritual magic. He spends time ahead of whenever he's expecting trouble to prepare spells. One of my favourite (and a typical example) is when he was going to see a vampire lady. He took a clean white hankerchief and charged it with sunlight. Later he flapped it open and burned the vamp. In SR terms he ritually cast a laser spell and bound it to a foci for later use, soaking up the drain during the ritual.

Not saying this is right for SR, just throwing out ideas.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 2 2005, 01:06 AM
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Well that could actually be a good fix for anchoring. I always thought it was kinda dumb that anchoring caused drain right at the moment the spell was "cast"; I mean, what is the focus active for, anyway, if it still has to take the mana out of your hide? It'd be really neat to be able to cast a spell and bind it to a focus for use later, and it would still be balanced because you can't have too many of them active at once anyway (Focus Addiction rules are great for that sort of thing).
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Pthgar
post Apr 2 2005, 01:08 AM
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Also balanced for the amount of karma paid to bind it and/or you could make the anchoring foci very expensive.

Also great for magic healing potions.
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DragginSPADE
post Apr 2 2005, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon)
FlackJack, you already can do ritual magic by yourself. You don't HAVE to be 2+ mages. It's a great way to sustain spells for a long time.

Bingo. You can certainly do ritual magic by yourself. The only downside is that you just get your own spell pool (plus whatever bonuses you get from foci, ally spirits, totems, and the like).

There's an example of this in Burning Bright. I forget the main character's name, but he uses solo ritual magic to track down the location of the person he was hired to find. Although he had an ally spirit, I don't think he used it to help with the ritual, either.

Personally, I really like the way the magic system works in SR, and ritual magic as well. I hope is isn't an area where they make drastic changes in SR4.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 2 2005, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (Pthgar @ Apr 1 2005, 08:08 PM)
Also balanced for the amount of karma paid to bind it and/or you could make the anchoring foci very expensive.

Also great for magic healing potions.

Yeah, that last one shouldn't be Anchoring anyway, well, unless someone wanted to spend Karma to bond an expendable anchoring focus to themselves. Maybe a seperate metamagic for potion-making?

Here's how I'd like to see anchoring work:

1) Bond anchrong focus, which cost in nuyen roughly the same as a specific spell focus, maybe a little less; more than a sustaining focus, and karma equal to Force for each spell you want to be able to use in that anchoring focus.
2) Cast spell(s) into focus. At this time you can set a trigger spell to turn on/off the cast spell (the classis Bullet Barrier/Detect Bullet combo), but all spells to be put ino the focus must be case consecutively. The total Force of the spell or spells you wish to anchor in that focus must be less than or equal to the Force of the focus.
3) Whether or not a trigger spell is specified, the caster can activate the spell in the focus as a Simple Action. The spell can also be deactivated as a Simple Action, if the spell is sustainned.
4) Anchoring foci that do not have trigger spells on are only active when the spell anchored into them is activated. Foci that have trigger spells on are active all the time.

Basically it's just an expensive way to pay forward on your drain tests, in the same way a mage can pay forward drain for summoning by binding an elemental and calling it up later.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 2 2005, 05:18 PM
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Anyway, on the actual topic of this thread, one thing I don't particularly like about ritual magic right now is how hopelessly easy it is to link to an unwilling target right now. The target also has very little he can do about ritual casting other than cowering in a ward all day, which is kinda dumb.
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FlakJacket
post Apr 2 2005, 05:22 PM
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Severing metamagic? Allows you some breathing room and the ability to stay mobile and to also send a little present back the other way as well.
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Wireknight
post Apr 2 2005, 10:50 PM
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Now, I could just be suffering delusional nostalgia, but wasn't ritual magic, prior to SR3, something that could be done either as a group or as an individual? I think that SR3 introduced the convention that it had to be more than one individual, and declared that if you wanted to use anything less than a blood or tissue sample, you needed a metamagic solely for such purposes.
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warrior_allanon
post Apr 2 2005, 10:45 PM
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i believe wireknight is right

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Sharaloth
post Apr 2 2005, 10:55 PM
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According to MitS pg 36, you can still do Ritual Sorcery solo. But yeah, blood, tissue, or bonded foci for a meterial link barring symbolic linking metamagic.
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warrior_allanon
post Apr 2 2005, 10:58 PM
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what i would like to see is ritual magic: alchemy, ala Full Metal Alchemist, but i think that falls under a geas more than anything else

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Sharaloth
post Apr 2 2005, 11:03 PM
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What? drawing a hermetic circle to cast any spell at all (unless you have the 'clap hands to complete circuit' metamagic), being limited to transmutation spells, and having all your spells automatically touch range? Eh, I'd call that a funky aspected Mage rather than ritual magic. Horribly underpowered compared to what a full magician can do.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 2 2005, 11:19 PM
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I'd like an option for lower drain, myself. Casting spells on the fly should be the real draining aspect of spellcasting, but taking your time (and quite a bit of time at that) should allow you to cast a spell with virtually no drain whatsoever. Of course, that doesn't help much in combat scenarios, but it would still be a fine option.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 3 2005, 12:45 AM
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Hm, now there's an odd idea. Maybe you start by having your basic spellcasting be based at the full Force of the spell, rather than half. However, everyone gets a sort of spell-bonding ability that lets you basically prepare spells into fetishes or something that you can cast at half-Drain (max spell-bound fetishes = Int or something?), sorta like the Anchoring metamagic works now only you actually control and cast the spell yourself and the foci would be vastly cheaper. Of course that would significantly change the way casters work nowadays; you'd see a lot fewer high-end spells being thrown around on-the-fly, but with higher power spells still available but not all the time. Casters would have to plan out their spells more often, and wouldn't be able to fire off stunballs like the sam shoots his guns.

Hmm, actually sounds like a good idea when I put it that way. :)
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Sharaloth
post Apr 3 2005, 01:20 AM
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I've heard the idea for full-force drain resistance bandied about a lot. Personally, I think that would REALLY hurt spellcasters. I've had a spellcasting character with a Will of 3 before (yes, I made him wrong) and even casting low-force spells he ended up all but out of the game three spells in. An oft-recognized reality is that higher target numbers are worse than fewer dice, making the drain equal to the full force of the spell and then adding the drain target modifiers into it would make even the Will 8 munchkin spellslinger a walking migraine just waiting to pass out. As they are they get aimed at first, have to deal with being the group band-aid as well being the only good defense against others of their kind, they're hard enough to work with already, let's not add to the problems, please?
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Dawnshadow
post Apr 3 2005, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (Sharaloth)
I've heard the idea for full-force drain resistance bandied about a lot. Personally, I think that would REALLY hurt spellcasters. I've had a spellcasting character with a Will of 3 before (yes, I made him wrong) and even casting low-force spells he ended up all but out of the game three spells in. An oft-recognized reality is that higher target numbers are worse than fewer dice, making the drain equal to the full force of the spell and then adding the drain target modifiers into it would make even the Will 8 munchkin spellslinger a walking migraine just waiting to pass out. As they are they get aimed at first, have to deal with being the group band-aid as well being the only good defense against others of their kind, they're hard enough to work with already, let's not add to the problems, please?

I'd be all in favour of lowering drain quite a bit.. and just making wound modifiers apply. Once you start getting hit, you start having trouble resisting the drain, so you have to be very tactical about casting. Playing in a game with the wound modifiers on drain (and a caster who hasn't made it healthier than a moderate wound in 2 runs..) it really does work for keeping mages sane power-wise.

Actually, come to think of it, the mage is the least powerful of the group.. lowest Karma, easiest to kill.. what's wrong with this picture?
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