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 Apr 5 2005, 05:47 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,691  |
Shadowrun is creepy, dark, and gritty now? Crap. I'd better load my weighted-barrel Ares Alpha loaded with EX-EX quick! Every turn I wait is four creepy, dark, gritty mooks that I don't kill.
First off: any time you use the phrase "you people", you lose the internet. I remember in that old "Grenade Countermeasures" I said that you were usually an ass, and you acted all surprised. Glad to see you've not changed! Second off... the fact that no one else pointed out that your criticism is not only unfounded, but completely bizarre, likely means that you've voiced it many, many times and they're just sick of it. If not... hey, you're not even inflammatory anymore. Regardless, that's easily the lamest critique of any system concept I've ever heard. Stating it with more oomph will not make it more true. -Albert sr4 is exalted lol |
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Apr 5 2005, 06:00 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
What, you don't think living in a world with vampires and magic, where you're likely to be manipulated by great dragons or rich, power-hungry corpers into dying for their benefit, would be creepy at all? I think it is. Still, you're right that a typical SR campaign goes easy on the creepyness, certainly a lot less than a WoD for mortals campaign. But SR is still typically on the darker and grittier side of gaming. In what other game do you play mercenary criminal terrorists? |
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Apr 5 2005, 07:40 AM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,691 |
D&D?
"Criminal terrorists" pretty much describes the average RPG party. It's just that most RPGs allow you to fund yourself through improbable means, whereas Shadowrun concedes that sponsorship is required for roving massacre to be a sustainable career. Hence "mercenary", so you've got a point there. Still... "the King has summoned the five of you to his chambers..." -Albert |
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Apr 5 2005, 06:35 AM
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#54
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Hopefully not his bedchambers unless you are all playing females. Otherwise, ewwww.... :eek: I wouldn't mind being summoned by the Queen however(Princess, maybe :love: ). |
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Apr 5 2005, 07:48 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
In SR, of course, you're much more likely to be used for summoning the Queen. :evil: |
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Apr 5 2005, 07:49 AM
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#56
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Umm, that's a different kind of "roleplaying", and it's usually not done in groups, unless you are a swinger. :) |
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Apr 5 2005, 06:45 AM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,691 |
Well, you can kinda wing it with the rules in the corebook, but it'll be unsatisfying until you buy The Swinger's Black Book, which gives a whole bunch of new manuevers and really "fleshes it out," so to speak. -Albert Edit: I'd like to point out that Dumpshock claims that I replied to your post about 23 hours before you made it. GG invision! |
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Apr 5 2005, 07:58 AM
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#58
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
honestly, i have no idea. i've only run SR on tabletop once, and played it on tabletop even less than that (nonce!) |
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Apr 5 2005, 09:00 AM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'd just like to note, for those of you who like to throw around a boatload of dice, that using the new mechanic on average you roll more dice for the same test that you would in SR3 (because of Att+Skill).
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Apr 5 2005, 09:38 AM
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#60
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
But doesn't that overemphathise attributes even more, and make maxed out attributes even more nescessary than now? I have till this day rejected maxing out my main character's physical attributes and have rather kept them in line with my character description, but with the new system, I might just have to. And for the record, a smallish, slender and fragile-looking str 6 elf woman is just ludicrous.
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Apr 5 2005, 11:14 AM
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#61
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
To avoid further idle and unproductive speculation, I'll go on a ledge and clarify something mentioned in the FAQ:
What this says is that the balance between Attributes and Skills is also being adjusted as is the framework they operate under. The system will likely put a stop to the current SR3 situation where dozens of shadowrunners are running around with not one but several Attributes on par with the racial maximum (think about how wrong that is). I won't even get into the skills situation where a shadowrunner often develops better ratings than an off-the-shelf specialist scientist who's exclusively dedicated to a particular field/skill. This is a long standing gripe I've had with SR3 and the move will partially correct this by providing a framework. Note that the FAQ only specifically mentions limits on character creation but hasn't yet addressed progression costs/curves in game - I fully expect to see Att increases to be proportionately more expensive given their impact on the new Dice Pools. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:22 AM
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#62
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Yay, another game where playing someone exceptional or talented is punished. Mediocrity's not a lot of fun in real life, why do I want to be stuck with it when I'm role playing as a professional killer, too?
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Apr 5 2005, 11:37 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
If the average attribute is 3, it makes me wonder what the racial modifyers are gonna be cos if you tack +4 str for a troll on that they're gonna be sick. Does anyone know if they'll be toning it down. I rekon they prob be +3 bod and +2 str, troll that is, can work everything else out from that. |
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Apr 5 2005, 10:36 AM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
This is incorrect - on average you will be throwing around exactly the same number of dice (possibly more in technical skills) for the very same tests so despite the change in the probability curve it still evens out. What's changed is the frame of reference - its just wrong that the average unenhanced SR3 character is on par with Carl Lewis, Charles Atlas and Einstein (assuming those maxed out the human racial maximum of 6 at their prime) out of the box. Take a look at the archetypes. The issue isn't about being exceptionally talented and shining in your field of choice, its being overly talented and gifted across the board - especially when it comes multiple characters in a team having multiple Attributes at racial maximum (not saying that won't be possible in SR4 just that the reference framework will necessarily have to be revised). Those aren't shadowrunners, they're supersoldiers. |
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Apr 5 2005, 10:40 AM
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#65
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
There's no reason you can't have a secret test count; you don't have to tell the player how many hits/successes he needs to succeed at a given task. It plays rather well, though there is a learning curve. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:50 AM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The average attribute was 3 even in SR3. If that didn't make trolls sick in SR3, I doubt it'll make them sick in SR4. Anyway, 2.8-meter tall, 400+kg bone-encrusted giants ought to be sick.
Only with the help with ware or magic. After all, going from an unmodified attr of 6 to 9 costs a whopping 72 Karma for a human. And in SR3 (post-Companion), the supergeniuses are more likely to have an Int of 11. Likewise I've always thought that a specialist scientist dedicated to a particular field might well have 2-digit skills related to that field -- considering relative karma costs, that seems logical. If the problem is lots of new characters having all attributes and skills at either 6 or nothing, then what needs to be (and I assume is very much being) tweaked is chargen. No such problem with BeCKS, though I can see how such a system would go totally against the apparent goal of simpler rules. |
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Apr 5 2005, 10:43 AM
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#67
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Edit: Austere beat me. What he said. :)
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Apr 5 2005, 10:44 AM
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#68
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
There are safeguards against maxing out stats at chargen built into the system. Some of these thoughts have, in fact, occurred to the designers. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:53 AM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Beg pardon? Is the Racial Modified Limit-Racial Maximum system being removed, with what used to be RMLs now being RMaxes for all races in SR4? In SR3, I rather give at least Carl Lewis and possibly also Einstein one or more 2-digit attributes and skills. |
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Apr 5 2005, 10:46 AM
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#70
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
No offense meant, but that still means a human, quickness 3 and pistols 3, is as effective a shooter as a night one (quickness 3 + 3) with no pistols stkill, and I find that really extreme and unrealistic. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:58 AM
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#71
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well, the FAQ does say that the Attribute maximum is 6 (plus racial bonuses, if any). |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:59 AM
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#72
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
{curmudgeon] As a GM, and not a playtester (since this doesn't have anything to do with the new system), it's been my experience over a really hideous number of years that if you're relying on your dice to produce your atmosphere, then you're doing something wrong. That's entirely the province of the guy running the game, not of little cubes of plastic. {/curmudgeon} We now return you to your previously scheduled discussion. |
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Apr 5 2005, 10:52 AM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Crap, how did I miss that. Well, OK, I guess that's just one thing I'll be forced to house rule. No way no how are starting, unmodified shadowrunners going to be equal to the greatest minds and bodies the (meta)human race(s) have ever produced.
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Apr 5 2005, 10:55 AM
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#74
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think the point is you won't have to house rule it, being that the FAQ (and playtesters) are saying that limits are already built in to the chargen system to prevent this.
Be that as it may though, I have no problem with PCs having one or two Attributes in the highest human percentile. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:00 AM
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#75
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Now I'll go out on a ledge: That's occurred to them, too. There are penalties for defaulting to an attribute (as there are now in SR3). Still working out what those penalties will be at this time. As I said, this has occurred to the designers as well. We play the game too, remember. |
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