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 Apr 5 2005, 12:10 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
I didn't read that as them simply ruling out the possibility of a starting character having an unmodified attribute of 6, but more as that being very expensive and perhaps not a profitable choice in the min/max sense. And even if there were a harsh upper limit at chargen, unless it's 3 (which I doubt...), the difference between that and the absolute natural maximum is much, much smaller than in SR3.
I guess that's just a preference question. I know well that a lot of people want the characters in their games to be The Bestest. I don't, really. I rather have them be just well above average people doing amazing things. I realize that this is a personal preference question, and that's why I said it's something that I'll personally house rule -- not something that I think should be changed or anything. Patrick Goodman: I remain confident it has also occured to many of you that a QUI-8 night one with Pistols-1 shouldn't really be equal to a QUI-3 human with Pistols-6. Whether something can really be done about such oddities under the system is another matter, and I won't be terribly upset if the answer is "no". This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 5 2005, 11:06 AM |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:06 AM
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#77
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Wow. And I thought I was the only one who posted around here who was familiar with Ironclaw/Jadeclaw's dice mechanic. To this day, out of all the RPG basic dice mechanic variations I've seen, Ironclaw's system is still hands down the one that impresses me the most for the smoothness of it's probability curves on both the "stat rating" and "dificulty of task" sides of the equation. In fact, I've always wanted to adapt Ironclaw's core mechanic for use as a replacement for SR's core mechanic. Depending on what the final details are of SR4's system, I may finally be able to do just that. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:06 AM
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#78
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There's not much range to be 'well above average' in the new system, from the sounds of it.
My main observation is that if 3 is considered to be human average, then there would be just as many people with an Attribute rating higher than 3 as there is those with a rating lower. I'm not really all that excited about the prospect of churning out Joe Average shadowrunners as PCs. |
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Apr 5 2005, 11:28 AM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Such scales applied to even just to the adult population of a Western country are bound to fail. For example, based on the rules, an attribute of 1 basically means you're disabled (show me a healthy adult human who can carry only 10kg of stuff before he wears out), so those must be very rare, which basically forces you to have a bucketload of people who are sub-par in most ways (2s accross the table). For SR3, my statistical attribute table looked roughly like this: 1-1.5%, 2-13.5%, 3-35%, 4-30%, 5-14%, 6-5%, 7-0.55%, 8-0.25%, 9-0.125%, 10-0.05%, 11-0.025%. With these figures, the attribute mean is 3.6125. It's not, of course, an exact science, since the GM is not required to stat out the whole of humanity, but I tried to keep this in mind when creating NPCs. |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:41 PM
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#80
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I've always just upped the human average in all editions of Shadowrun to 4 instead of 3, and adjust metahumans from there.
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Apr 5 2005, 11:35 AM
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#81
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Well, one could say that an Attribute of 1 is either physically handicapped or mentally handicapped. 1 is just one step up from "I'm a vegetable!" |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:44 PM
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#82
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Fortune: That'd certainly help remedy the issue of Joe Slightlybelowaverage being completely useless.
tanka: Yup, and looking back at the figures, I'm pretty sure the likelihood of a 1 should either be 0.15%, or I've taken the likelihood of various illnesses etc. into consideration. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 5 2005, 11:37 AM |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:44 PM
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#83
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Sure. I'm a fan, I worry. If it's being adressed, great. :) And since you're much more in the know about the new mechanic, could you please answer a simple, and egneral question: what is more important in determining success chances (dice pools, as it looks): skill, or attribute? Will low skills still be worse off than a high default attribute? Will the lowered average skill mean there'll be generally higher costs of rising in any skill and learning it above 3 than in SR3? Those learning tests already are tedious. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:01 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Yeah. But the point I was making was you now add that to a skill when you roll. That just might tip the balance a bit. By the way i'm not just moaning that trolls are unfair as most of my chars are trolls. Troll rigger(Hacker), Troll decker(Hacker), Troll mage, Troll Shamen you name it i'll build it as a troll. Anyway in nWOD. Str + brawl = attack in melee. Troll Str 8 + brawl 4 vs Human Str 4 brawl 6. The human shold have the advantage, brawl 6 vs 4, if brawl 3 is average. But the troll has. :proof: Yeah I know this assumes a lot but it the best example I could come up with without research. :smokin: |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:07 PM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If the only difference between the troll and the human in this case were the STR attribute, I'd agree. In SR this isn't the case. Sure the BOD and Reach bonuses also help (in SR3 anyway), but in the end it's often the case that amount of dice you get to roll is the only thing that really matters. If trolls finally get to completely annihilate humans in unarmed combat, I'll just be happy. |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:36 PM
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#86
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ok, a thought just crashed into my head like a jumbojet. what happens to smartlink and other target number modifying cyberware? they will have to more or less completly redo the entire cyberware collection!
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Apr 5 2005, 02:43 PM
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#87
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Yup.
Range modifiers, vision, weather, etc etc. Hell, even walking/running. Confusion spells and powers, etc etc. One pool not mentioned is the Karma Pool. If that is still around, and if it's not, RIP Shadowrun 4th Edition, they have to rework all that too. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:36 PM
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#88
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
forget using the old books for anything but flavor. its a new SR world out there...
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Apr 5 2005, 02:47 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Dammit they've chipped the top of the iceberg with a pin and thrown the chip at us.
But imformative none the less. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:41 PM
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#90
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You say that like it's a bad thing... |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:42 PM
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#91
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
I need to hear something cool and good (IMO) about the new rules, I'm getting depressed.
Tell me karma is still the same!!!! |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:48 PM
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#92
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
well there are some old classics in there that i wonder how will end up after the changes. |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:04 PM
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#93
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 23-February 05 From: Michigan Member No.: 7,112 |
I hope that the FAQ people listened to that, because I think it's absolutely right. My kneejerk reaction to the new system was "Well, I guess I'll just be using SR4 books for setting info." After a bit of thought I've calmed down immensely and I'm back to cautiously optimistic provided that there are adequate balances in place to keep skills more important than attributes. A defaulting penalty is a good step, but hopefully there will be something in place to keep QUI 6 Pistols 3 Guy a noticeably worse shooter than QUI 3 Pistols 6 Guy. One of the things I've always liked about SR was the importance of skills and the fact that knowing how to do something is better than having raw strength or speed. And Patrick, we know you guys are trying to do good, but I don't think you can blame us for reacting to limited information when it's all you'll give us. We can't react to the stuff you haven't told us yet. Edit: On second thought, most of us can't react to the stuff you haven't told us yet. Some of us actually seem to be very good at it. |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:47 PM
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#94
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
So SR is going to become "everybody wears black, wears makeup, and has rampant teen-angst?" :grr: |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:49 PM
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#95
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
And we're giving out free eyeliner at GenCon.
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Apr 5 2005, 02:57 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Well, I generally liked the Trinity Game. It was our game we played when we wanted a break from SR. I liked that mechanic 'cause it made my life easier as a GM. I could enjoy the story more. I think I'm going to like the new SR mechanic.
When I told my wife she said, "But then it's not complicated. I like it complicated." Women. :P |
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Apr 5 2005, 04:15 PM
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#97
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
You sick man.
Anyhow. A brief plea, after the umpteenth argument on a MUSH about this... Describe what each (as in every) attribute does, and what each step in the ratings scale means for every attribute. I am tired of trying to boggle out what charisma represents. |
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Apr 5 2005, 03:08 PM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that'll go well with the skirt-wearing crowd! |
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Apr 5 2005, 04:18 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Hey! I just realized that the new basic throw gets rid of the 6-7 flattend probability curve problem! I also have to rework my Excel SR Dice Roller.
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Apr 5 2005, 03:12 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Any thing that removes Rule of 6 from shadowrun has gotta be good.
The math just doesn't make sense in it. :wobble: |
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