Pools and what will replace them, ... if anything Options

[Lucyfersam]

So, the longer I think about the new mechanic, the more upset I'm becoming with it, not really with the fixed TN, but with the elimination of dice pools as we know them. Pools are probably my favorite part of the SR system, and their loss is a major blow to the quality of the system. IMO they are pretty close to the perfect way to show focus on actions during a combat turn.

Given the stated elimination of dice pools, what will replace their function? Will all actions now be equal (please no, I like a little bit of variability based on the importance of the action)? Will they completely crib the WW system and institute pool splitting (please no, this is the worst system I've ever seen for this, I've hated it in every WW game I've ever played)? One person suggested a more frequently refreshing Karma Pool that can be cheaply used to buy dice. This is not a bad suggestion, could work as long as Karma Pool refreshes very regularly and can still be used to buy re-rolls and remain balanced (which seems... difficult). I'm not sure what I would recommend, it will require a little more thought, but there needs to be something. Please.

[mfb]

i agree completely. the ability to increase your chances of success on important actions is one of the strongest points SR1-3 has. i will be vexed mightily if this is not somehow ported into SR4.

[sapphire_wyvern]

[mfb]

eh. as much a proponent of SR4 as i've been, if it sucks, i'm out. i'm not going to sit down and try to work out a whole new boatload of houserules to try and fix the system, if it's in as much need of fixing (according to my standards) as SR3 is.

[Lucyfersam]

If dice pools are all I need to fix, I might house rule them, but it would make me MUCH happier to not have to. The idea of a single pool has merit, something as simple as a Focus Pool, determining how much of your attention your putting on any given action. This pool would probably be equal for all characters, which might be a good thing, as once your adding your attribute to your skill for roll there is no reason I can think of for anyone to have a higher or lower rating, unless there was some whiz piece of cyber or a spell that radicly increased your perception so you had an effective time dilation (bullet time being a very extreme example). As I write and think about this idea, I'm starting to like it a fair bit...

This is a solid idea, but lets keep more coming. Maybe if we're lucky some playtester group will try out some of these ideas in there game and then push for them to be added, if there isn't already some system in place to fill this function.

[lord_cack]

I think that maybe something like "Action Points" in the D20 system (oh god, I just mentioned...that-which-must-not-be-named....).

But, given the new developments with the system structure, the concept of Action Points seems to fit in quite well.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Action Points are basically the Karma Pool of D20.

I can't be bothered to figure out house rules for SR3-like Pools until I get to see exactly how opposed tests work in combat and elsewhere. Simply adding 5-15 extra dice for characters per combat turn or even per combat could end up dramatically unbalancing the whole thing.

[Critias]

I'm more likely to stick with SR3 than make an "I'm out" line in the dirt over this. I'm not a big fan of fixed-TN systems I've played with, I am a big (very big) fan of combat and other player's-choice die pools, and I'm actually very very comfortable in SR3. I'm going to give SR4 a chance, because I'm an addict and have been since the very early 90's -- but if I end up not liking it's system, I'm going to just stick with what I know and like (not ditch the game altogether).

[mfb]

if SR4 sucks, and a venue exists to continue playing SR3, i'll continue to play SR3. but i don't see that happening, if SR4 sucks.

but it won't suck. right?

[SporkPimp]

How about some kind of point that you can spend to increase your dice pools or add automatic successes? Some kind of point to represent, say, the "power" of your "will"? Maybe it would refresh during downtime, or when you do cool stuff?

If only there was an example somewhere. Some sort of "power" of "will" mechanic in some other hypothetical fixed-TN dice pool game.

...Nah. It's just too bleeding-edge.

-Albert
Hopes that they'll just amp the Karma pool to compensate.

[Kagetenshi]

[Fortune]

[Critias]

To be honest, I'm already thinking about just trying to convince everyone I play with to keep Pools (in their current incarnation), as a tack-on house rule to the SR4 system. More than the fixed TN's, the removal of tactical thinking and player-based decision making pisses me off. I've been one of the more vocal "shut up and stop whining before we hear anything" guys on here, but what we did just hear almost makes me do a one-eighty on my opinion about SR4.

I really, really, like SR's pools, and options, and it's been a huge reason I've loved SR's system. The announcement that those pools no longer exist is a major step in a very wrong direction -- that announcement, in and of itself, was enough to keep me from looking forward to SR4 and make me apprehensive about it, instead.

That said, I still understand I just have to wait and see the final, finished, product. But the removal of just that one key element, and no mention of anything else replacing it (in a "you still get to do some thinking, player" sort of way), makes me afraid of what that final product is going to be like. Unless the rest of the final product is completely sock-rocking, though, I'm going to be disappointed. That one little line of FAQ was enough to answer a question very, very, incorrectly.

I don't think a house rule would be too horrific, if it granted SR3 style combat, hacking, spell, etc pools to SR4 players. As long as everyone gets the same handfull of bonus dice to toss around (based on stats, etc, like it is right now), I don't think it'd be too game breaking. I'm worried that I'm already thinking this way, though -- ask the guys I game with, I don't like house rules, and am among the most vocal and sincere advocates of keeping things canon that you'll likely ever find. The fact I'm already sitting here making up house rules has me a little nervous.

[Kagetenshi]

[mfb]

yeah. i feel like a kid in December who's just been reminded that Santa also sometimes brings lumps of coal.

[Critias]

And whose parents, while in the middle of mentioning coal as a possibility, are beginning to read from a list of all the things he did wrong this year.

[NightHaunter]

The dice pools, which were based on attributes, have now been replaced directly with attributes.
It's only a minor tweak, if you put it in those terms and the dice are easyier to keep track of.
It's a more elegant system than shadowrun 3.
I'm not just being a fan boy.
Just because it's different doesn't make it bad. :eek:

(This post has been edited for puntuation, cos I suck)

[Critias]

Right, I understand that attributes are still important. I don't mind that, just like I don't mind the fixed TN.

What I do mind is that it seems like all the thought and effort and tactical thinking has been taken from combat (and spellcasting, and Matrix running, etc, etc). I like being able to sit on a pile of combat pool and use it as an ace up my sleeve at the right time in a combat round. I like the flexibility spell pool grants my casters -- go all out on that fireball and hope it ends the combat, or nurse my spell pool and use it for drain instead of offense? I like the options, the choices, the ability to decide something that will directly influence how combat goes.

I don't like just saying "I shoot this guy," rolling a handfull of dice, and hoping for the best. There's more to combat than picking a target (or, at least, in SR there always has been, and I think there always should be).

I'm also curious about what this will mean for several spells, adept powers, and pieces of cyberware (combat sense, tactical computers, that sotr of thing). Those are among my favorite methods of augmentation, precisely because of their CP boost (and my love for CP and what it represents).

[Fortune]

[NightHaunter]

[mmu1]

[RunnerPaul]

[Spookymonster]

There are some interesting implications to the disappearance of the pools. Resisting drain, for example. Without a pool, is it straight Willpower/Charisma +/- totem mods only? Will the Sorcery/Conjuring skills be applicable now? Or will new magical skills be added (Centering for the non-initiated, for example)?

What about casting 2 spells at the same time? Do they both use the same # of dice (Int + Sorc +/- totem mods), withholding dice from each test as a penalty?

If I no longer have to balance my pools between casting and drain, it looks like magicians just got a whole lot stronger.

[Synner]

[Eyeless Blond]

You know, it's possible that in the SR4 system attributes are being used *as* pools. What I'm getting at, for instance, is say you have to shoot at someone, and you have a Qui of 6 and Pistols 5. You roll all 5 Pistols dice, like normal, but you can also add in Quickness dice, which refresh like a pool. So you can add in 4 Quickness dice to the 5 Pistols dice for this shot, and have 2 Quickness dice left over for your second shot (in addition to the 5 Pistols dice since it's a skill), or for a Quickness test to dodge someone else's shot, or however that's going to work. Sound like a possibility?