Fixed TN Options

[Shadow]

If they do something like this, they are going to have to have more than a fixed TN. They are going to have to have a max upper limit to attributes. Say 6. That way there won't be a ton of dice being rolled.

So that's something to look forward to, a max of 6 (or whatever) in any attribute... *cough*cookiecutter*cough*

[Fortune]

It has already been stated that the Attribute maximum will be 6 (plus any applicable racial modifiers).

[Shadow]

[Fortune]

I kind of agree with you. I was very excited about the prospects of SR4 when I first heard about it, but the more actual data I get (not that there's much to start with), the more apprehensive I am getting about the whole idea.

[Shadow]

[Kanada Ten]

I'm interesting in seeing how it all works out. How do cyberware and magic augmentations fit it and so on. If dynamics are playable and worthwhile but not overly so, then I can live with it.

I'm not against a totally new mechanic, though it is surprising and not what I expected. The advantage of it is rather obvious, allowing each effect to have a single line and with simply understood mechanic no need for layers of rules doubling each other.

We could argue the cookie cutter point of view, but I don't know with all of Shadowrun's augmentations how true that will be. Cyber, bio, magic, nanoware, and matrix all mix and allow for so much variety... One could say that all 1st level fighters are the same in d20, but the truth is not at all that clear. In the end it comes down to roleplaying.

[Fortune]

[Kanada Ten]

Another point to keep in mind is that Skill+Attributes are called Dice Pools, which has a rather... interesting connotation to it. If the dice are to be divided between actions or similar, withheld for defense as example, it could supplement the tactical edge given by current augmentations.

[Veracusse]

[Veracusse]

After thinking for a bit, I think that there is one way for this new confangled system to work in Shadowrun. I hope that this post doesn't fall on deaf ears!!!

First of all: The number of successes should be based on difficulty of a given task alone. In other words there should be base number of successes for any given situation. This number, other than the given situation, should not be modifiable. Things that can be included in this category are damage codes, (i.e. L equals 2 successes, M equals 4 successes, etc.), skill tests (easy task equals 2, hard equals 4, etc.). Something along these lines.

Next: Modifiers should affect the number of dice that are rolled. However, to make skill important and reflect that a skilled person is a skilled person no matter what the situation is, dice modifiers should affect the dice that is added from the attribute with a minimum of 1 attribute dice. For example if super ninja night one with 7 Quickness and 2 Pistols is trying to shoot while standing one-handed on the roof of a fast car at night during night-time rush hour, she should have -5 (or something appropriate, I am just making these numbers up for sake of explication) to her quickness attribute, but not her skill. Thus she would have a dice pool of 4 (Attr 7 -5 + skill 2 = 4). Now if an elite sec guard who is not as naturally as fast as super ninja-girl nightone has a quickness of 4 but a pistol of 6, he would have a dice pool of 7 (Attr 4 -5 |1| + skill 6 = 7). Now of course doing the acrobatic stunt in the first place may have been too hard for super elite sec guard. But I am assuming otherwise.

Added dice to the dice pool should only come from character modifications through cyberware, spells, adept abilities, or even decker utilities (oops sorry , Haaaackers! :wobble: ). Most certainly, added dice should not come from characters trying to do stunts for craziness factor. That is cheese! That is an exalted thing, where cheese in that game is mandatory. But NOT in Shadowrun!

The rule of six can be applied here to allow for an open ended amount of successes. My main point is that mods should be done in the right way, Base successes should not be modifiable, and skills should not be modifiable (except only for when a character is defaulting from one skill to the other).

I also want to state that, NO I do not have a lot of faith in the dev staff for various reasons. There is no reason why I should with the recent FAQs that have been comming out. And I think that FanPro should not bite off the hand that feeds. I.E. THere bloody loyal FANBASE of almost twenty years.

Sorry for my tone at the end. But this is starting to become a little too much to swallow.

Veracusse

P.S. I also want some feedback on my idea if it is feasible for a game like Shadowrun or not? From devs, or anyone.

[mfb]

no reason besides the recent books, you mean. that most of these same devs were involved in writing. (assuming you liked the recent books, that is.)

[sapphire_wyvern]

[CradleWorm]

I voted "Top" and let me explain why.

In Shadowrun (1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions yes I've played them all) the biggest obstical has been the time required for "solo" characters. What I mean by this is some character types need to do things alone. The best example is deckers, but riggers and mages can be included in that lot.

Every character has something to do in combat. Every character has something to do while doing legwork. The problem is telling players to go play pick-up-sticks while the decker runs his part or the rigger is involved in a chase while everyone else sits back and enjoys the ride.

What FanPro is attempting to do here is remove or minimize the effect these "solo" characters have. This way, everyone is involved all (or most) of the time.

By fixing target numbers at 5 and removing Pools they have effectively reduced the amount of time it takes to roll a test. They have taken the guess work out of deciding if you should use your extra dice or not.

What I expect to see for your basic test, and potential modifiers is this. Roll your dice pool (Attribute + Skill) and count your successes. More is better. Thats it.

Now, that is to simple for a real system... there have to be modifiers. And for your basic action (a single action in combat is what I mean) I would expect to have modifiers to add or remove dice from your dice pool. Things like Laser Sights and Smartgun Links will add extra dice. Things like Range and Visibility will remove dice.

I would expect thresholds to be used in "extended" actions. These are things that take some time. Example, cracking a Maglock. Simply, each roll takes X amount of time and you need a total number of successes equal to the rating of the Maglock.

If you take a look at the types of tests in Shadowrun (Success Test, Open Test, and Opposed Test), Open Tests go away and the system will keep Success Tests and Opposed Tests.

[Shadow]

In other words, they have simplifed and dumbed the game down enough, that it will go quickly and smoothly for people who have spent a grand total of five minutes reading the rules. That way they can jump right into their munchkined l33t hax0r d00d.

Oh yeah, I wanna play that game.

[Eyeless Blond]

Whine whine whine. Spend all your time moaning and groaning about how complicated the ruleset is, about how decking rules and rigger rules and electronic warfare rules are all so damn complicated and have such a huge barrier to entry, and then when someone comes up with a way to make everything nice and streamlinned you whine about how the new streamlinned rules are too easy and don't provide enough of a barrier to entry for the riffraff who comes in off the streets expecting to actually play a game without having to take night classes.

Honestly, noone here but the mute freelancers/devs have even actually seen the new mechanic. How can you love or hate something you haven't even seen yet, other than a bare few lines offering a hugely oversimplified view of how the system is maybe going to work? I for one am going to stick to the slightly less vacuous passtime of trying to guess what the system actually is, and try to address concerns and offer suggestions that the devs/freelancers may or may not have thought of yet, as that may actually be helpful. Kvetching and moaning about mechanics that we haven't even seen yet helps noone, and only serves to make the devs regret ever posting anything about the game, so stop it before we stop even getting the tiny tiny crumbs we are getting.

[Phantom Runner]

I am absolutely excited about this change. Having played both WoD and Shadowrun for more years than I care to recount, I have to say that the fixed TN and dice pool scaling system has worked out incredibly for White Wolf, a system that was often plague with the same floating TN problems that SR faced. I can't imagine how this change would in anyway make SR any worse. There will be so much less for both players and GMs to keep track of.

[Synner]

Thanks Eyeless Blond, believe me the voice of reason is appreciated.

[Eyeless Blond]

No prob. It's something that needs to be said, and said often, to keep these threads from degenerating into holy wars which help noone.

That said, I and the rest of us "unofficial volunteer consultants" would dearly love to have something more meaty than vague hints at possible changes. It would really help focus out suggestions if we knew where the current focus was headed. I and others, for instance, have been mulling over a modified exploding dice mechanic in another thread that would greatly benefit from knowing where exactly the base "skill+attribute" dice pool comes from, how modifiers to the Threshold and dice pool are handled and where they come from, and if there are ever any changes to the base TN at all and if so where they come from/what situations they come from. Threads on proposed changes to specific spells could really use more concrete statements on how the spellcasting mechanic will work; the debates on how the WMI will be integrated into SR flavor-wise could really benefit from knowing some of the mechanics for the Matrix and how "hacking" will work, etc etc.

Keep in mind that the main reason so many of us are nervous about SR4 is that the same game devs are also responsible for the current SR FAQ, which is rife with inconsistencies, both with itself and the actual canon ruleset. Apart from allowing us to give more helpful suggestions, more concrete hints as to the actual nuts and bolts will help allay the fan's fears that you guys are not just hurriedly pulling random crap out of your asses, as seems to be the case with many of the FAQ answers.

Your fans are not the enemy. Quit keeping us in the dark. :)

[Shadow]

[Eyeless Blond]

*sigh* Yes, you're right. I don't know you. Similarly, you don't know me; if you did (or if you had read the post just above yours) you'd know that I definately *don't* walk around with a "Fanpro can do no wrong" flag in my hand, up my ass, or anywhere on my anatomy. In fact, I think there are a number of things they've done a terrible job on, including but not limited to many of the new skills in SOTA '63, the new adept powers in STOA '64, and that wannabe-Errata page on their site that's attempting to masquerade as an FAQ. Fanpro, IMO, has a terrible track record when it comes to making up new mechanics and balancing new rules with the old ones. In fact the main reason I'm making suggestion after suggestion is because I do *not* trust Fanpro to properly make the SR4 mechanics without assistance from the fanbase, and why I've been advocating more and more releases of the actual mechanics.

All I'm saying is don't start screaming that the sky is falling, just because you have an image in your head about what the new mechanics are going to be and that it's not what you're looking for. Who knows; they might actually come up with something brilliant. Best case scenario everyone ignores you, making your posts nothing more than wasted electrons; worst case scenario Fanpro clams up even more and we get nothing at all until the game is published in August and there actually *is* nothing we can do about it.

[Synner]

[Shadow]

The thing is three months ago I was saying this or that, making suggestions and encouraging people to trust FanPro. I actually knew about the 4th edition coming a while ago. And I was excited. A new edition to clean things up and rework the messed up rules would be great. A 4th edition to do to 3rd what 3rd did to 2cnd.

But thats not what where getting. Where getting a whole new game, and that is not what I (and many others) want, regardless of how good their rules are. I have spent my free time playing this game over the last 16 years. I want the basic mechanic of the game to continue.

Think about it, I started playing SR1 when I was 16 years old. If I can figure out SR1 at 16 some 12 year old (their new market) ought to be able to figure out SR3. So a streamlined and improved version of the game should be a huge hit.

Again, not what where getting. Where getting a whole new rule set. Who's to say this unplayed (in mass quanity) rule set is going to be any better then SR1? Why do that when you can build on an already great game?

That is the question I have been asking, over and over again. Why make a whole new game when you have a great one already. Have I gotten answers? No. I've gotten "stop whining" "wait for the game to come out" "Fanpro knows what they are doing"

or just dodged entirely. Who's decision was it? Was there any kind of input or was it arbitrary?

Cause 2 months ago if you put a poll up asking everyone if they wanted a SR4 to be a whole new game, or just an improvement on the exiting model, the answer WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN a whole new game.

[Shadow]

[Synner]

All I have to say to that is - at this point you haven't seen the new system and you have no way of knowing whether or not this system is actually better suited to the setting and ambiance of Shadowrun, than any of the 2 and a half systems preceeding it (and I'm not saying it is).

You have made up your mind - from the scant information released - that SR4 is a ripped version of the nWoD system shoehorned into the Shadowrun setting and you are passing judgement without the data to judge by.

There are indeed parallels, especially at the level of core mechanics, but having seen a significant portions of the rules, I can honestly say you are wrong. Believe me or not, it's your choice, but I know for a fact that the assumption you are basing your judgement on is incorrect.

And btw - I find it particularly funny that you knew SR4 was coming out months ago when I only heard about it for the first time 4 weeks ago almost to the day.

[Shadow]

But I have seen this:

There will be a fixed tn of 5
No more dice pools
No more Riggers and Deckers
No atts above 6
Modifiers add/subtract dice
Otaku are technomancers

Are all these taken horribly out of context? Cause if they are tell me now cause hate them all. Fixed tn's? For Shadowrun? No more dice pools? And the biggie, lets get rid of Shadowrun lore and call deckers/riggers Hackers.

So tell me I am wrong, tell me the above changes are not being made. Tell me the new system is based on the old system and not an entirly new one with a few passing simularites to the current game.