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> Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You, the Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner
Kagetenshi
post Apr 7 2005, 03:27 PM
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In any discussion of proper Shadowrunner behaviour, inevitably two points come up; the idea that if you fire a gun, the mission is a failure, and the idea that if you render an enemy unconscious rather than dead that your life will be easier in the long run. Let's take a closer look at these ideas. I shall first address this tendency towards pacifism.

Several explanations are given for why it's a good idea to incapacitate rather than kill: it garners less enemies, it's the right thing to do, it achieves the same effect.

"It's the right thing to do". Perhaps. Consider also that the right thing to do is to not actually be Shadowrunning in the first place. Let's make this very clear, Shadowrunners ruin lives. Joe SecGuard allowed the Face access to the building, failed to pick up on the falsified security passcode the Decker was using, and was completely blindsided by the Mage. It wasn't his fault? That's possible. It also makes no difference. If the run resulted in meaningful losses, odds are overwhelmingly that the guard will get heavily reprimanded, and it's not at all unlikely that he'll be fired. Even if he retains his job, his chances of promotion anytime in the next decade or so probably approach a Planck quantity. If other guards died, were fired, or otherwise were affected as a result of his actions (or even if not), you can bet his time at work isn't going to be too pleasant. You have ruined his life, and quite possibly that of his family, if any. The same applies to Billy Burnout the Corp Cyberdemon. Big Billy cost a lot, possibly millions, but he can't even protect against a couple of Shadowrunners. Unless he's an ultra high-end model, he's probably looking at early retirement. The kind where they take out all of the augmentations and don't put anything back in.

"It garners less enemies". Consider: Jane SecGuard, husband to Bob Miscellaneous, with two kids (one twenty and at college, one sixteen), is killed in the line of duty. Who is going to be the enemy? Bob? The kids? In all likelihood, none of them have fired a weapon more dangerous than a taser, at least not outside of a shooting range. What are they going to do? They're probably law-abiding corporate citizens, without the remotest idea how to start looking for street contacts. The only way they'd have a description of the runners is if the corp has it and gives it to them, the latter part being extremely unlikely. Consider on the other hand what happens if Jane is merely tasered or gel-rounded into unconsciousness. She wakes up to reprimands, the scorn of her fellow employees, possibly termination. She goes home to face the family that she's no longer supporting, or that at least she has no meaningful chance of increasing her support to. She is not only motivated, but she actually has weapons training of some variety. She also has a decent chance of having seen the Runners she's after. At best, the situation is the same (no ability to effectively pursue revenge). At worst, the runners now have a motivated enemy with the ability to actually harm them on their tail. This applies doubly for guards without family.

"It achieves the same effect". Any guard who is merely unconscious is one stimpatch away from coming after you again. A dead guard, or even one who's been patched up at twelve boxes of Physical, isn't going to come after you again. All it takes to restore a guard with ten boxes stun to the fight is a stimpatch.

Now, on to the idea that a gun fired ends the Shadowrun: this one is at least vaguely more arguable. A gunshot does not mean a failed Shadowrun. However, except for circumstances in which you can be very assured of the shot remaining unheard, you should not fire until you're ready to leave. Even guards take time to respond. If the alarm goes off while you're shooting your way back out of the secret lab with barely two minutes between you and the door, there isn't going to be any meaningful human opposition in that time. That being said, know your target: sentry guns, containment doors, and some drones don't have that same delay. Regardless, in almost every run, there is a point at which opening up with the weaponry not only fails to harm but actually enhances the likelihood of undamaged survival. Obviously this point cannot be exploited in every run (especially those with uncertain opposition or those in which secrecy is a requirement), but with the exception of places capable of destroying you in under a minute regardless of where you are at the time or places with equipment such that you cannot escape them once they've gotten a lock on you, it will exist.

I suppose I should also talk about the question of bystanders. I've got no problem with killing them, but remember not to let it distract you from your objective. Some Johnsons will look down on it as unprofessional, others will look at it as the height of professionalism (that is, as long as you're eliminating witnesses rather than actively hunting down ordinary people to kill). Those are the risks you take. This should mostly be a by-character decision. Remember, though, if an innocent bystander attacks you or can identify you, they're not an innocent bystander anymore.

I'm most certainly not arguing that Runners should be utterly devoid of morals. No, the idea that I find absurd is that Runners both have morals and follow them. It's a pretty twisted morality (or one that revels in ignorance) that will be fine with 'Running. Your mileage may vary, but I've always found that it's a lot more fun to have a character who wouldn't think of killing innocent bystanders (say, a fourteen-year-old boy and his mother), but who, when faced with the situation, guns them down anyway because he was scared, didn't realize they weren't a threat, was afraid they'd identify him, whatever, rather than someone who just runs on past saying to himself "see how moral I am?"

If we can move on from the idea that leaving witnesses and potential enemies around is "professional", I think we'll all be doing a lot better.

~J
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Demosthenes
post Apr 7 2005, 03:36 PM
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I see where you're going...and I agree, to a certain extent.
I'd argue the following:
An ideal shadowrun is one where you get in, do the job, and get out, without having to employ unnecessary violence.
That is professional.

I think the problem you're addressing is that a lot of people are forgetting that the words 'unnecessary' and 'ideal' are both present in that sentence.

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Belle Anderson
post Apr 7 2005, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (Demosthenes)
I see where you're going...and I agree, to a certain extent.
I'd argue the following:
An ideal shadowrun is one where you get in, do the job, and get out, without having to employ unnecessary violence.
That is professional.

I think the problem you're addressing is that a lot of people are forgetting that the words 'unnecessary' and 'ideal' are both present in that sentence.

Gotta agree here. There is biz and then there is personal, if you can get the job done with out leaving a trace AND not doing any destruction/killing/havoc that is unnecessary, kudos to you.

I think there is a big difference between finding yourself in an unavoidable firefight with guards, and allowing the huge troll with the huge gun run rampant destroying everything in sight.
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Talia Invierno
post Apr 7 2005, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE
Consider also that the right thing to do is to not actually be Shadowrunning in the first place. Let's make this very clear, Shadowrunners ruin lives.

Slight rephrasing, maybe: because not all Shadowrun involves shadowruns; and because at least some of us have played purely defensive characters. (There's actually one of these -- not mine -- currently active in LitS.)

Also, in some cases, what's involved in the actions of shadowrunning (especially per the idea you address that a gun fired ends the actual run) is actually less destructive of the lives of others than what the character was doing before becoming a shadowrunning. In those cases, shadowrunning still won't be the optimal moral choice, but it may be a closer approximation than the PC's previous life.
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 7 2005, 04:00 PM
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If you wish, just drop the capitalization. You can play Shadowrun without going on shadowruns, but you won't be shadowrunning.

And either way, there are still moral issues to think of before "should I kill people?"

~J
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Penta
post Apr 7 2005, 04:06 PM
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Kage, you forget something.

Killing someone opens you up to a murder charge.

Incapacitating them means an assault charge at best.

Thus, it is infinitely more practical to just wound someone.

Now, granted, if your assignment is to kill someone, that may not make much difference. But if it's a B&E?

I would disagree.
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Mr Cjelli
post Apr 7 2005, 04:07 PM
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Runners aren't paragons of virtue. Realistically, every runner is going to have to kill someone who really doesn't deserve to die, or be complicit in said murder. I think your argument that firing a gun doesn't end the shadowrun is spot on. But I think you're overlooking something when you argue that incapacitating a secguard will get said guard fired.

I do not think a corp would fire Joe SecGuard because he got duped, ko'ed, or otherwise defeated by shadowrunners. For corps, the bottom line is credit, and secguards cost money: guards need to be trained, and if you fire a guard you need to train a replacement. A corp will fire a SecGuard when he becomes a liability: he'd have to demonstrate such incompetence that it'd be cheaper to fire him and hire a new guard than to keep him on. If every guard was terminated for failing to stop a shadowrun team, then the corp security industry would have a ridiculous turnover rate.

As an aside, killing or incapacitating earns you enemies depending upon who you're shooting at. I imagine the corps as a whole don't mind you killing their people as much as costing them money. Of course, gangers and organized crime types will probably be a lot more vindictive if you shoot up a couple of their soldiers.
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Backgammon
post Apr 7 2005, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE (Penta)
Kage, you forget something.

Killing someone opens you up to a murder charge.

Incapacitating them means an assault charge at best.

Thus, it is infinitely more practical to just wound someone.

Now, granted, if your assignment is to kill someone, that may not make much difference. But if it's a B&E?

I would disagree.

While I agree to that, that's only half the story. If you incapacitate someone, he can maybe give cops a description of you. If he's dead, that's not gonna happen.

And I'm CERTAIN you'll be facing MORE than an assault charge if caught. All that illegal cyberware, guns, stealing, B&E, etc.

If you're caught, your career is in deep trouble. Unless you're SINless. In which case you don't even make it to jail.

So there's hardly any point to avoiding the murder charge. Both pretty much mean the same to you.
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DrJest
post Apr 7 2005, 04:29 PM
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Depending on what you did whilst you were inside, however, enforcement is a lot less... enthusiastic... if you knocked the guards out with gel rounds instead of putting big holes in them.
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BitBasher
post Apr 7 2005, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (Penta)
Kage, you forget something.

Killing someone opens you up to a murder charge.

Incapacitating them means an assault charge at best.

Thus, it is infinitely more practical to just wound someone.

Now, granted, if your assignment is to kill someone, that may not make much difference. But if it's a B&E?

I would disagree.

Less-lethal rounds fired at a person could still bring charges of attempted murder. There's no such thing as nonlethal, only less-lethal. Those things are still quite lethal. Shoot someone twice with gel rounds at 4 net sucesses each and they're in overdamage. it overflows.

Also, the number of laws an average SR violates just for walking down the street is enough to put them away for a long while, not even counting the number of laws they broke on the run not even counting the murder.

You can morally justify it to make yourself feel better, but you're starting at felon and heading only up from there just for doing the job in the best case scenario.

also:
QUOTE
I do not think a corp would fire Joe SecGuard because he got duped, ko'ed, or otherwise defeated by shadowrunners. For corps, the bottom line is credit, and secguards cost money: guards need to be trained, and if you fire a guard you need to train a replacement. A corp will fire a SecGuard when he becomes a liability: he'd have to demonstrate such incompetence that it'd be cheaper to fire him and hire a new guard than to keep him on. If every guard was terminated for failing to stop a shadowrun team, then the corp security industry would have a ridiculous turnover rate.
Major corps and government agencies believe in scapegoating. They may not fire him, but his career is over, he'd be relegated to low security positions with no chance for promotion forever. Other guards and scientists will blame him. His quality of work environment is screwed.
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 7 2005, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
Less-lethal rounds fired at a person could still bring charges of attempted murder. There's no such thing as nonlethal, only less-lethal. Those things are still quite lethal. Shoot someone twice with gel rounds at 4 net sucesses each and they're in overdamage. it overflows.

There is nonlethalů but heaven help the runners if they get caught and they used magic (Stunball) to do the job.

~J
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Sharaloth
post Apr 7 2005, 04:42 PM
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Two stunballs can still kill, just like gel rounds.
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 7 2005, 05:51 PM
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Come to that, you're right. I'd forgotten that you can upstage a stunball.

~J
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BitBasher
post Apr 7 2005, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 7 2005, 10:46 AM)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Apr 7 2005, 12:42 PM)
Less-lethal rounds fired at a person could still bring charges of attempted murder. There's no such thing as nonlethal, only less-lethal. Those things are still quite lethal. Shoot someone twice with gel rounds at 4 net sucesses each and they're in overdamage. it overflows.

There is nonlethalů but heaven help the runners if they get caught and they used magic (Stunball) to do the job.

~J

Right, but not really, I mean if the runners fail to knock them out in a single deadly then have to cast a second stun spell (which happens) then they'll run that physical damage right up into critical levels.

EDIT: Damnit too slow.
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Nikoli
post Apr 7 2005, 04:47 PM
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Although it gives me a funny concept for a short story. A sec. guard that is duped by a face, get moved to a less glamorous job, same team, different bypass, he gets moved again, to a non-glamorous and now hazardous job, same team, gets knocked out, gets fired. by this time he pretty much knows the team on sight. He's finally relegated to working as a cashier at a Stuffer shack, sees the team filling up their truck and taints their slushies with dishsoap or something, making them all sick and they get caught. Only to find out they were going to do a run on the company sec. guard database and wipe it clean for some reason, thus they would have restored his chances at having a good paying job, instead they all develop horrible cramps and bowel issues and get caught by the guards.
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BookWyrm
post Apr 7 2005, 04:53 PM
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On some of my old runs, I tried to emphasize the aspect of NOT killing unless there was no choice; like many here who agree, it does mean a lesser charge if/when captured, and with the right shyster on your side, this can be pleaded down.

Sleep & stun spells are great when you have a mage or shaman, and Narcoject pistols also help. Getting your decker to hack the building & turn the building's security systems against your opponents helps, especially the fire-suppression system. ;)
Smoke & flash-bangs are also a good idea.

But having a disguise, even a pair of ultra-modern sunglasses can be usefull (Guard #2: "Hey, I said it was a elf or human in black, with really cool shades. That's when the fire-foam hit us. I wasn't able to get his home-phone number."
Chief: "Do you know how many people actually fit that description?!"
Guard #2: "..... more than five?" )
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Kanada Ten
post Apr 7 2005, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE
Consider also that the right thing to do is to not actually be Shadowrunning in the first place. Let's make this very clear, Shadowrunners ruin lives.

This is false logic. Corps ruin lives, breathing ruins lives, lives get ruined having nothing to do with running. Whether something is RIGHT or not has nothing to do with individual lives being ruined.

Consider this. Runners are hired by a reporter to steal a biological weapon and evidence proving a corp is producing it and using it to clear villiages so they can buy the land rights. This action, the theft, is illegal and may result in many ruined lives, but yet is right for it exposes a greater evil. Or maybe they are both wrong. It hardly matters.

Killing and not killing make no difference. After recieving wounds, physical or mental above their proffessional level the secguards flee - they no longer present a threat.
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Penta
post Apr 7 2005, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (Penta @ Apr 7 2005, 09:06 AM)
Kage, you forget something.

Killing someone opens you up to a murder charge.

Incapacitating them means an assault charge at best.

Thus, it is infinitely more practical to just wound someone.

Now, granted, if your assignment is to kill someone, that may not make much difference. But if it's a B&E?

I would disagree.

Less-lethal rounds fired at a person could still bring charges of attempted murder. There's no such thing as nonlethal, only less-lethal. Those things are still quite lethal. Shoot someone twice with gel rounds at 4 net sucesses each and they're in overdamage. it overflows.

Also, the number of laws an average SR violates just for walking down the street is enough to put them away for a long while, not even counting the number of laws they broke on the run not even counting the murder.

You can morally justify it to make yourself feel better, but you're starting at felon and heading only up from there just for doing the job in the best case scenario.

It's the difference between a really long prison sentence and lethal injection.
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DocMortand
post Apr 7 2005, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Killing and not killing make no difference. After recieving wounds, physical or mental above their proffessional level the secguards flee - they no longer present a threat.

I disagree with that. If the secguards got a good description of you, then even when they flee they are still a threat - just not an immediate threat.

Of course, using that logic is shaky as well - how does a runner know whether a fleeing secguard has a description, or is just panicking and fleeing because he got hit? Shooting him in the back has always had a negative connotation.
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Nikoli
post Apr 7 2005, 08:48 PM
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Well, except when doing an infiltration...
wear a breather-mask.
Wear baggy, oversized clothes
dye your hair beforehand.
full-body electrolosis except for eyebrows, and hair on head (or other hair based on character preferences) cuts down on left-behind dna
exfoliate before the run, cuts down on dead skin cells
if possbile arrange for ammonia or bleach dispersion grenades to ruin any stray evidence
have the decker hack the maintenance drones to start cleaning just after you leave and immediately empty their bins into the building incinerator if possible
wear gloves when handling your weapons everytime
get shoe inserts to give you a discreet boost in height
wear "flats" for the job, discard them as soon as possible, including the shoes.
wear goggles or sunglasses
apply a temporary tatoo or tan spray, nothing permanent or long lasting.
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Tanka
post Apr 7 2005, 09:26 PM
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QUOTE (Penta)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Apr 7 2005, 12:42 PM)
QUOTE (Penta @ Apr 7 2005, 09:06 AM)
Kage, you forget something.

Killing someone opens you up to a murder charge.

Incapacitating them means an assault charge at best.

Thus, it is infinitely more practical to just wound someone.

Now, granted, if your assignment is to kill someone, that may not make much difference. But if it's a B&E?

I would disagree.

Less-lethal rounds fired at a person could still bring charges of attempted murder. There's no such thing as nonlethal, only less-lethal. Those things are still quite lethal. Shoot someone twice with gel rounds at 4 net sucesses each and they're in overdamage. it overflows.

Also, the number of laws an average SR violates just for walking down the street is enough to put them away for a long while, not even counting the number of laws they broke on the run not even counting the murder.

You can morally justify it to make yourself feel better, but you're starting at felon and heading only up from there just for doing the job in the best case scenario.

It's the difference between a really long prison sentence and lethal injection.

Proof?

Let's take your average run (get in, grab this, get out, casualties are unimportant). Same scenarios all the way around. One with killing, one without.

After the meet, they all go about and gather information on the run, the J, the goods and their teammates (if they've never run with them before).

Most contacts or FoFs need something to put off the fact that, if they're caught helping an illegal act, they'll get fired/put in jail. So usually it's a hefty sum of money -- also known as bribery. Repeat this with several individuals. That's 1.

After gathering information, they all get in touch and setup a meeting spot to plan. Conspiracy to commit an illegal act. That's 2.

After planning, they scout the area out to get a guard count, positions of cameras, turrets, easy access points and entries. Trespassing. That's 3.

Next they act. They break in, manage to get past security, grab the item and go. Tack on 2 for trespassing again and grand theft. (After all, who steals small things?) That's 5, total.

Here's where they differentiate.

Group 1 meets some resistance. Instead of stunning everybody, they open up. A Fireball or two, some APDS, some EXEX. Makes a bunch of guards pretty mushy, huh? Why don't we say a dozen counts of manslaughter just to be nice. That's 17. Tack on two more for the two Force 6 Fireballs. We've got a count of 19.

Group 2 meets the same resistance. Instead of killing, they all break out the gel rounds, unarmed combat and stun spells. Now they have 12 counts of assault. 17. Tack on another 2 for the two Force 6 Stunballs. That's 19.

Alright, now let's make a checklist:

(Group 1/Group 2)
Assault: 0/12
Manslaughter: 12/0
Trespassing: 2/2
High-Force Spells: 2/2
Conspiracy to commit an illegal act: 1/1
Grand-Theft: 1/1
Bribery: 1/1

OK, so the numbers are even. That's great. Sure, manslaughter is worse than assault. So?

They're on Corp territory.

Whoa. Woops.

The runners get geeked. The runners' contacts get whacked. The J gets blacklisted by his employers. The Corp gets the item back.

By actually killing people to reduce the chances of being identified, you reduce your chances of being caught.

No matter if you kill or assault, you're on Corp territory. It's their rules that apply, not the UCAS, or CAS, or Tir or NAN.

So the question is... Would you rather make it easier for the Corp to get a good description of you or would you rather live with a dozen murders on your already black conscious?
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wagnern
post Apr 7 2005, 10:23 PM
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eye witness acounts are unreliable, and that little corp security badge could very well hide a small camera. Dead men can talk.
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wagnern
post Apr 7 2005, 10:24 PM
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eye witness acounts are unreliable, and that little corp security badge could very well hide a small camera. Dead men can talk.
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Tanka
post Apr 7 2005, 10:27 PM
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Which is why you strip down anybody you killed if you have the time.

If not, well... Masks and goggles go a long way towards helping your hidden identity stay hidden.
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DrJest
post Apr 7 2005, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE
So the question is... Would you rather make it easier for the Corp to get a good description of you or would you rather live with a dozen murders on your already black conscious?


I'll take "Makeover and You - How Not To Get Caught" for 10 points, Bob.

But then I'm still stuck in the 80's, when shadowrunners were at least one-quarter Robin Hood :D
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