Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You, the Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner Options

[Sheffield]

You keep boiling these arguments down to absolutes that I don't think hold water. I mean the initial post makes loss of a job equal to death (with ruining a life being set equivalent to ending a life). Now taking away someone's spurs makes them good as dead? That makes sense to the player, not the character. I mean really: Five years in jail and losing twenty grand in 'ware is still better than dead.

Think about it: Would you rather face bankruptcy or death? A five-year term or life without parole? Loss of an arm or death? There are shades of grey in real life and in good IC play that can very easily be stripped out.

Is a character better off dead than stripped of his wired reflexes? Of course not, but as a player, you're better off starting a new char because the jailbird has lost his edge and is not as competitive when compared to newly generated char.

[Kagetenshi]

If they've got just spurs? Yeah, screw it and do the heat.

If they've got Wired-3 and miscellaneous support 'ware? If they're million-nuyen anythings (with the exception of mages who spent it on spell points)? We're already operating under the assumption that there's some reason the characters won't or can't work legitimately, as there's not much in terms of other reasons for such a character to work the shadows.

~J

[wagnern]

I agree, death and being fired are not equilivent.

Ask yourself: Would you rather your father (mother or other loved one) be killed or layed off?

Now most of us would rather see Dad working at a crappy job and down on his luck that in a box. Dad can get another job, yes it may not be as good as his last, but life goes on. He can still see his grandkids, piddle around in the garage on days off (ok, they may not be weekends anymore), and all those little things that matter.

But it all comes down to the style of your game. If you want to play soulless bastards who kill without thought and their only consern with bloodshead is their drycleening bill, then go ahead. You can be profesional or sycopathic, or some combination of the two this way.

I beleave that is the easy way out. No morel delima, no questions. The world is a burning inferno of greed, hate, and power lordeded over by souless megacorps and you are playing deamons in this hell.

[scoundrel]

[Kagetenshi]

[Penta]

I think, however, that you might be overstating the case a bit, Kage.

That is not a universal outcome. Not even close.

Does it happen? Yeah.

It's very rarely that catastrophic, though, for *most* people who're laid off.

It does depend on what industry or region you're in, though.

[SpasticTeapot]

I believe in the use of excessive nonlethal force. Nobody's going to fault Ted the Security Guard for being hit with a vindicator, regardless of wether it's using gel rounds or APDS. Magic, better still.

[mfb]

[Cynic project]

[wagnern]

[Kagetenshi]

Feeding people burgers is done by machines. Next question?

~J

[mfb]

given the high numbers of shadowruns that occur all around the world, i have a hard time believing that a guard who gets fired from one job will have much trouble picking another such job, albeit one not as cushy as his last one. and that doesn't even take into account shadow operations, which also often require men with guns to stand around and smoke.

[Crusher Bob]

The whole point of the 'caputre and release' plan was not to really get useful runs out of captured runners (you may still get useful information), but to 1 deter the runners from killing your guards (so you don't have to pay insurance, train new guards, etc) and 2 make surrendering to the corp a much more attractive option.

Notice that if the runners are cornered by the 'torture runners to death' crop, they are dead anyway and will try to blow up the whole building/kill all the hostages/etc. If they are cornered by the 'catch and release' corp, they might give it up.

The corp gains nothing by killing the runners, they are just tools, after all. What the crop wants is to know how the info on the run was leaked and who set the run up, and so on, which you need live runners to maybe find out. Also, the corp wants to minimize the damage from the succesful run (no guard death insurance payments, etc). This means giving runners reasons not to blow up your buildings while they are at it.

[Kagetenshi]

They gain the reputation for being bad people to run against. Who wants to bet it's more difficult and costs more to line up a team to run against Mitsuhama?

~J

[Ed Simons]

[Kagetenshi]

I would not bet that in the least. Most collateral damage runner teams are likely to do with Mitsuhama will be the result of overpenetration by the sentry autocannons stationed outside the zero-zones.

And even if it is accurate, I'd also bet that the collateral damage is well worth the reduction in total runs.

~J

[Ed Simons]

[nick012000]

[Kagetenshi]

[Req]

[Ed Simons]

Zero-zones are expensive and increase the time it takes for your workers to get in and out of the different parts of your facility. It's a tradeoff.

[Kagetenshi]

Which is why every corp facility isn't a zero-zone. They still use it when they consider it appropriate (and for Mitsuhama the bar is comparatively low), clearly demonstrating that they're willing and eager to paste runners.

~J

[Birdy]

One more thing: This is Shadowrun. A world where employment is scarce and corps dictate the rules of employment.

So chances are good that there are no insurance moneys and loosing your job will kill you or at least make you a Squatter. And most Ex-corpers would prefer death.

Your job is your life!

Birdy

[Orcus Blackweath...]

I think that truly whether to kill potential witnesses is mostly a role-playing flavor thing. If your character feels that murder is wrong, then taking a chance at getting caught might be acceptable. At the same time, other members of the group may not have the same level of compunction.

A couple of other points in favor of leaving people alive, reputation. The streets will hear about your actions. If it becomes known that every run is going to be filled with bodies, this will come back to haunt you. The corps will eventually figure out who the runners are, or at least figure out how to find them. While the corp might not care enough to have you killed, this information will eventually get out to those with an axe to grind. Secondly, dead men tell no tales, if you want information, you will need someone alive to give it. If you have no need to question anyone, then this second point will not apply.

As for the "leaving witnesses alive" idea. No one ever sees my face on a run. At the very worst, I have a disguise, and at best, I am in chameleon armor complete with face concealment. If you go into a run without these simple precautions, you will be seen by every camera, drone, sensor, and potential witness. Of all of these observers, the human is the least reliable. The only potential witness is the mage who might have assensed me. The mage gets hit with so many tranqs that he likely dies anyhow.

[Kagetenshi]

A couple of other points in favor of leaving people alive, reputation. The streets will hear about your actions.

But why will the streets care? The streets are filled with killers, hired or otherwise. Botching a job hurts your reputation. Blatantly screwing over your contacts hurts your reputation. Killing people? Not seeing it.

~J