Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You, the Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner Options

[Ascalaphus]

In an edition that this thread isn't about, and that I would have difficulty caring less about.

That said, unless Knight Errant has also changed dramatically in SR4, they're slightly better-equipped but no more motivated.

~J

My apologies, I forgot the edition tag. However, this could happen in SR3 too; if a corp underperforms, they can be replaced (if an only if it's an election year.)

[PBI]

All this really boils down to what flavour of SR you prefer.

In SR1 (and even 2), the game really was set up to be the runners as the good guy taking on the evil corps/govt's which had misled the public into believing the corps/govt's were only looking out for the opublic's best interests, when in fact it was the exact opposite. That started to blur with the fiction, which seemed to show the runners as criminals who, at best, caught a dose of morality only after being in the biz a very long time and having some sort of personal epiphany about right and wrong (even if only a small one) and trying to do some good for once (usually with all sorts of nasty personal consequences).

If you are playing the Shadowrun according to the themes of the early days of the game, then Good Guys vs Evil Corps is dead on correct.

If you are playing Shadowrun in late 2nd/early 3rd onwards, then your runners are the professional criminals, the gentlemen assassins, independent organized crime contractors, etc.

Regardless of which style you play, as long as everyone is having fun, all is well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[AngelisStorm]

Criminal and bad guy aren't always the same thing.

Pink mohawks fighting the man, professional criminals doing the man's dirty work, professional criminals using thier position to fight the man, pink or professional just trying to make ends meet in a dark and dungy world...

Firefly. Boondock Saints. Matrix. Smokin Aces. Transporter. Dozens and dozens of different comics. Threads have been done to death with the themes, but they all can work for Shadowrun. Just depends on how you want to paint the world, and how the players want to interpret your art.

[Fuchs]

I stated reputation as a possible motive. This would mean that for role-playing purposes, your character wants a reputation as someone that only kills when necessary. I cannot see any way that reducing enemy casualties will be bad for your reputation (assuming that you succeed at the mission). This could actually be a point in your favor when the Johnson is looking for a team.

"Hummm team 1 has a good rep, never failed a mission, team 2 never failed a mission either, but they are known for killing a lot of people, including women and children. Ok, anytime I need lots of bodies I call team 2."

In the above case, if the Johnson did not want the runners to know that he worked for the same corp (he is concealing his own failure for instance). He might not want his own people to be massacred. If he specifies this in the contract, people will guess what he is doing, and likely why. Additionally, team 2 is going to charge a whole bunch for a non-lethal mission.

Our first campaign had a team that didn't do wetwork as a matter of principle, but was very much fond of overkill and shot down just about everyone who was in the way, or looked like he might be thinking about getting in their way at some time in the future. Johnsons started to hire them for any mission that got them close to the real target - data steal, sabotage, whatever - and just watched the desired assassination be covered up as collateral damage with no one the wiser.

[AngelisStorm]

Our first campaign had a team that didn't do wetwork as a matter of principle, but was very much fond of overkill and shot down just about everyone who was in the way, or looked like he might be thinking about getting in their way at some time in the future. Johnsons started to hire them for any mission that got them close to the real target - data steal, sabotage, whatever - and just watched the desired assassination be covered up as collateral damage with no one the wiser.

Mmmm, Eversor Assassin meets Jaynian philosophy.*


*"I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight… If he bothers me, or if there's a woman… Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

[Fuchs]

I do not follow the "leave no witnesses" reason though, unless the runners physically destroy the cybereyes/contacts of the dead people as well anything a guard sees will have been recorded. And destroying all that footage takes a lot.

[The Jake]

I do not follow the "leave no witnesses" reason though, unless the runners physically destroy the cybereyes/contacts of the dead people as well anything a guard sees will have been recorded. And destroying all that footage takes a lot.

Only if recorded.

- J.

[The Jake]

I do not follow the "leave no witnesses" reason though, unless the runners physically destroy the cybereyes/contacts of the dead people as well anything a guard sees will have been recorded. And destroying all that footage takes a lot.

Only if recorded.

- J.

[Fuchs]

Only if recorded.

- J.

Given that memory is basically free, why wouldn't it be recorded? Especially by a security guard on duty? I cannot think of any reason.

[Paul]

Am I wrong in thinking balaclava's are still commercially available in 207x?

In the end this is a discussion of play style preference. As always I say do what you find fun, no matter how realistic it is or isn't. After all the point of the game is fun.

[Fuchs]

We handwave the masking stuff away as "It is assumed you take the usual precautions to avoid getting identified".

[Kagetenshi]

Given that memory is basically free, why wouldn't it be recorded? Especially by a security guard on duty? I cannot think of any reason.

Memory isn't basically free, though. Headware Memory for taking video footage is ¥150/minute, which gets expensive fast. Offline storage is cheaper at 20¥/MP, but then you have the issue of having to continuously transfer it out to the storage. There's also the fact that you don't just need the guard to have cybereyes, they need an eye camera as well.

Last but not least, eye camera footage only tells you what the guard saw, not what the guard heard, thought, figured out, or other possibly compromising details that they could spill the beans on.

~J

[Warlordtheft]

We handwave the masking stuff away as "It is assumed you take the usual precautions to avoid getting identified".

Ditto-otherwise you'll bog the game down in what the players are doing to disguise themselves.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What is that Headware Memory thing you are speaking of, Kagetenshi? Sounds ancient. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

And destroying all that footage takes a lot.

Just a HERF Gun or EMP Grenade, followed by applying Läel.

[Kagetenshi]

It's state-of-the-art! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

~J

[Jericho Alar]

Ditto-otherwise you'll bog the game down in what the players are doing to disguise themselves.

Isn't it basically just one die roll per player in both systems?

[Paul]

Ditto-otherwise you'll bog the game down in what the players are doing to disguise themselves.

For some of us, that is the game!

[Saint Sithney]

FFBA is basically a bullet-proof diving suit. With goggles or shades, the amount of exposure any competent non-face runner should expect to show is less than a centimeter of skin. And the face, of course should be in disguise. If you think witnesses are a problem, maybe you're the problem. Maybe you shouldn't have taken that Distinctive Style flaw which requires you to constantly be in costume even while you're commuting murder. Other than that, what's your excuse?

But, I wouldn't worry too much about getting good and lethal. If Johnson thinks that you're shy on excessive force, he might just think that means he doesn't have to pay you. Unless, of course, it's the reason he uses your services to begin with. Fact is, Mr. J is paying, so you handle things how he wants them handled. If he says he doesn't care about corpses, that means he expects corpses. And it's always a good move to provide Mr. J with what he expects, at least on the surface of things.

[Kagetenshi]

FFBA is basically a bullet-proof diving suit. With goggles or shades, the amount of exposure any competent non-face runner should expect to show is less than a centimeter of skin. And the face, of course should be in disguise. If you think witnesses are a problem, maybe you're the problem. Maybe you shouldn't have taken that Distinctive Style flaw which requires you to constantly be in costume even while you're commuting murder. Other than that, what's your excuse?

The fact that it's easier to shoot someone in the face than it is to be sure no one shouted any identifiable information, your team doesn't have a distinctive set of physical builds, your team doesn't use any distinctive equipment, so on and soforth. This is before we get to information like "which direction did they go?" or, god forbid, the possibility that one of the bystanders is capable of Assensing; it's about as easy to just kill them and move on than to waste time trying to screen for the last one.

~J

[kzt]

If a bystander is capable of assensing he's probably capable of conjuring.

But my basic principle is that everything comes around. If the team goes through and shoots everything that moves they shouldn't be too upset when the way Lone Star asks them to surrender is a missile through their back window.

[Saint Sithney]

Yeah, the concept of escalation def applies. It's sort of like the trench warfare in WWI. Neither side would really try and kill the other unless directly ordered or unless it was in retaliation. Instead, they would fire artillery at the same spot every day just to show that, if they wanted to, they could kill you. I like to imagine that a corp, if it sees biomonitors start showing up "unconscious guard" they'll issue pursue and capture orders, but if they start getting "corpsified guard" warnings, they'll immediately authorize full on deadly force.

But deadly force is usually way more fun.

[Kagetenshi]

But my basic principle is that everything comes around. If the team goes through and shoots everything that moves they shouldn't be too upset when the way Lone Star asks them to surrender is a missile through their back window.

That's Lone Star's preferred technique anyway. Regardless, I've covered above how being processed through the legal system is equivalent to death for many character types.

Sithney: you're talking about emotional decisions made at the lowest levels in the absence of clear ways for superiors to quash that sort of behaviour. I don't see any reason why corporate policy would be any better for a runner using nonlethal force.

~J

[kzt]

That's Lone Star's preferred technique anyway. Regardless, I've covered above how being processed through the legal system is equivalent to death for many character types.

So how is that in your world trigger happy Lone Star can't manage to use their dozens of MMG armed drones to shoot a dozen gangers committing violent crimes against voters on a downtown expressway?

And no, as they can't interrogate chunky salsa. While they can certainly get a lot of useful evidence that isn't nearly as effective as a runner naming names. And almost as important, Lone Star doesn't get paid for keeping in custody guys turned into cooked strawberry jelly.

[Jericho Alar]

So how is that in your world trigger happy Lone Star can't manage to use their dozens of MMG armed drones to shoot a dozen gangers committing violent crimes against voters on a downtown expressway?

And no, as they can't interrogate chunky salsa. While they can certainly get a lot of useful evidence that isn't nearly as effective as a runner naming names. And almost as important, Lone Star doesn't get paid for keeping in custody guys turned into cooked strawberry jelly.

1) I'm reasonably certain that he was mostly joking ( about the missiles anyway) - although if you do have to go take care of a problem you may as well do it the fun way, eh?

2) Lonestar doesn't care about a couple dozen gangers who will be gone by morning. anyone out at the hours they operate isn't worth the assets to protect; and on the rare occasion that they are it's better use of resources to provide an escort detail than it is to clear out the gangers every night.

more to the point, in sr3 both the Ancients and the Spikes are described as having numerous anti-vehicular weapons and other mil-spec toys - more than enough of them to make any patrol detail think twice about trying to make a bust. (they've toned it down a bit in sr4 apparently)

3) "He resisted arrest, I swear!" - runners are so cybered and twitched up (did anyone besides the face ever install an off switch on their wired reflexes?) or even worse, magicked up that they're calling the HTR team as soon as they get eyes on your chrome, and probably 80% of 'runners are never going quietly anyway (prison might as well be a death sentence for a runner) and Lonestar knows this too.

Even if you did go quiet, the vast majority of you don't have SINs so if they "disappear" your organs out the back door before booking, there's no recourse anyway - you don't have rights; and that means your estate doesn't have either.

[kzt]

more to the point, in sr3 both the Ancients and the Spikes are described as having numerous anti-vehicular weapons and other mil-spec toys - more than enough of them to make any patrol detail think twice about trying to make a bust. (they've toned it down a bit in sr4 apparently)

I don't care how tough a biker you are, a few strato-9's a km away are going to result in you becoming dog meat in under 6 seconds after they decide you are hostile. And a couple of Strato-9s (each with the included MMG and 500 rounds of ammo) are one of the main ways Lone Star patrols.