Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You, the Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner Options

[Jericho Alar]

Yeah, that seems really powerful and so unlike modern times. Hundreds of members wow. I can't think of anything like in modern times, other then Hells Angels, Mongols, Banditos, Outlaws, Sons of Silence, Gangster Disciples, Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, Asian Boyz, Nortenos, Black Stone Nation, MS13, Vice Lords, Tiny Rascals, 18th Street, Florencia 13, Fresno Bulldogs, Surenos, Nuestra Familia, Aryan Brotherhood, La Eme, Barrio Azteca, Mexikanemi, and Neta. Oh and the hundreds of gangs larger than every gang mentioned in SR. I can't imagine any police would even try to mess with any organization as powerful as the 50,000 members of the Gangster Disciples in Chicago, much less throw Larry Hoover and most of the rest of the leadership in prison for the rest of their lifes. So yeah, I can see how they would be all powerful in the future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Don't take things out of context. The entire purpose for posting it was to illustrate how the language on the gang had changed from previous editions to today.

it will be especially illuminating if you read what Kage quoted from Underworlds (here) and compare that language, which paints a very different picture concerning the capabilities of the ancients, to the much different language here; so aptly illustrated by your sarcastic litany (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[edit]and just in case you try to make this about the relative size of 'modern day' major criminal organizations to shadowrun orgs, the answer is still the same "Today's Police are centrally organized and generally speaking care about working together and scoring points with the general public. Tomorrow's "Police" are many and varied and almost universally care more about their own bottom lines, making the other outfits look foolish so they can snake their contracts, and scoring points only with the corporate elite in their well-kept corporate enclaves (I-5 is notoriously not an enclave, being a public highway)."[/edit]

[Jack Kain]

I'm going to reinforce a point I'm sure has already been made in the ten pages.

The reason you don't want to kill guards is its to high profile. ITS NOT the guards family who comes gunning its the Corporation or Lone Star/Security Corporation.

If you steal some megacorps tech they won't spend all that much to find you. By the time they do whatever you have stolen is no longer in your possession and chances are you could never direct them to its location. They know this. But if you kill a six guards in the process then they have the families and friends and co-workers of those guards screaming for your head. They have the media asking about the investigation etc.
If something was stolen they can just cover it up and move on.

The other thing is criminal investigation and prosecution is expensive. It just isn't profitable for a megacorp to track down every runner who does a job against them. But killing people increases the loss. First any money that employee could have generated in his life time is lost. Second they have to be replaced even lowly drones who work through skill wires had to have that bit of cyber installed. Security Guards however require training, which of often quite expensive.

For the social costs of crime it only profitable to lock up murders, rapists, and people who perform serious aggravated assaults. (stun damage does not qualify as aggravated assault)
For robbery, auto-theft and most other crimes. It costs way more to lock them up for a couple years then their crime cost society.

[Kagetenshi]

THE INSURANCE WAR
One of the darkest times in Atlanta's history was the so-called Insurance War that rocked the city in the year 2035. The war was between Cord Mutual Insurance and North American Eagle Life Insurance. The stake was the coveted insurance contract for all employees of the new CAS government.

Cord Mutual had just completed construction of their impressive skyraker and had relocated their home offices to the new Atlanta building. Meanwhile, North American Eagle had a long-standing tradition of reliable service in Atlanta, which made them the candidate favored for the governmental contract.

The clandestine war of terrorism between the companies is thought to have started on June 8, 2035, with the simultaneous explosion of six Geas jets in flight from their Atlanta departure point. Geas Airline was insured by North American Eagle, which paid out enormous sums both for the jets and for civil suits by relatives of slain passengers. No connection with Cord Mutual was made at that time.

What followed was a sweep of assassinations of vidstars and entertainment personalities across the continent, and especially in Atlanta. The only connection between the victims was that they all held large policies with North American Eagle, which was beginning to have difficulty paying off its policies.

At some point, it is thought that North American Eagle's corporate investigators made a connection between a suspected assassin and Cord Mutual. Not much is known except that North American Eagle began funding a terrorist organization known as the Medusa Sisterhood to retaliate against Cord Mutual.

The Medusa Sisterhood made a series of vandalous attacks on Cord Mutual-insured corporations and individuals. Cord Mutual responded with attacks on the Sisterhood as well as on more North American Eagle targets. What began as a clandestine corporate power struggle became a bloody war, claiming the lives of hundreds of insured. The media finally broke the story, acting on rumors of the two corporations' involvement in the rash of violence sweeping the sprawl. The coverage caused the CAS government and the City of Atlanta government to come down hard on both corporations, ending the war.

In the aftermath, Cord Mutual was able to provide evidence of North American Eagle's funding of the Medusa Sisterhood, while no official connection was made between Cord Mutual and the independent operatives they used as soldiers in the Insurance War. North American Eagle was assessed fines and several top officials were arrested. Cord Mutual won the CAS insurance contract despite a storm of controversy.

Shortly after the fiasco, Cord Mutual went through a power struggle and several changes in upper management. There was also a supposedly unrelated accident in the company's skyraker, which led to the closing of the building's top 25 floors. Cord Mutual officials said only that it was declared structurally unsound.

I don't think killing a few guards is particularly "high profile" in this world.

~J

[kzt]

For the social costs of crime it only profitable to lock up murders, rapists, and people who perform serious aggravated assaults. (stun damage does not qualify as aggravated assault)
For robbery, auto-theft and most other crimes. It costs way more to lock them up for a couple years then their crime cost society.

It is quite cost effective to simply shoot people who you catch commiting crimes, "pour l'encouragement d'les autres." If corp x summarily shot people who they caught stealing cars and corp y just told them to not do it again, which corp would you steal cars from?

[CanadianWolverin...]

It is quite cost effective to simply shoot people who you catch commiting crimes, "pour l'encouragement d'les autres." If corp x summarily shot people who they caught stealing cars and corp y just told them to not do it again, which corp would you steal cars from?

Has corp x killed someone who was family, friend, or neighbor (who knows, maybe my character is "robin hood" type)? My character would so be stealing cars from them just to hit them where it hurts, in the wallet. Then any guard not turning a blind eye would get a projectile through it, probably.

Who knows, maybe my character is stealing cars from corp x for corp y chop shops.

[kzt]

[edit]and just in case you try to make this about the relative size of 'modern day' major criminal organizations to shadowrun orgs, the answer is still the same "Today's Police are centrally organized and generally speaking care about working together and scoring points with the general public. Tomorrow's "Police" are many and varied and almost universally care more about their own bottom lines, making the other outfits look foolish so they can snake their contracts, and scoring points only with the corporate elite in their well-kept corporate enclaves (I-5 is notoriously not an enclave, being a public highway)."[/edit]

A Lone Star contract depends almost solely on their keeping the elected officials who vote on the contract happy. What makes elected officials unhappy about police are angry voters and the threat of angry voters, the elected officials/family/friends interactions with the police, and the elected officials/family/friends interactions with criminals.

If you have rampant crime on a main street that tens of thousands of your voters use every day and that millions of voter tax dollars are used to maintain it's a pretty short leap to assume that the voters won't think the cops are doing a good job and will make their discontent known to the elected officials who have to renew the contract. Or not renew the contract. Hence it HUGELY in the interests of Lone Star to not let any of this crap occur.

Like I said, I have pretty much no tolerance for fluff that is blatantly stupid.

[Jericho Alar]

A Lone Star contract depends almost solely on their keeping the elected officials who vote on the contract happy. What makes elected officials unhappy about police are angry voters and the threat of angry voters, the elected officials/family/friends interactions with the police, and the elected officials/family/friends interactions with criminals.

If you have rampant crime on a main street that tens of thousands of your voters use every day and that millions of voter tax dollars are used to maintain it's a pretty short leap to assume that the voters won't think the cops are doing a good job and will make their discontent known to the elected officials who have to renew the contract. Or not renew the contract. Hence it HUGELY in the interests of Lone Star to not let any of this crap occur.

Like I said, I have pretty much no tolerance for fluff that is blatantly stupid.

The vast majority of voters are safe inside their compounds by the time the gangs are on the street, and the gangs are gone before rush hour the next morning. [edit] And even then, the voters who aren't in corporate compounds are in residential districts (most of which are at least a B rating), whereas large stretches of I-5 are in D rating areas (low priority, industrial/commercial) which are only generally patrolled in the daytime actively and only at night in response to a report.

I don't see the Ancients reporting themselves, and anyone with three brain cells to rub together is avoiding the area after bar time anyway.[/edit]

SINless (the ones most likely to be near I-5 after compound curfews) are not voters. so why would would the elected officials (who in SR1-3 are pretty much corporate puppets anyway...) care again? and by extension, why would Lone Star care to clear them out generally when they can just send a patrol through before any VIPs decide to take a 'tour' at 3am?

It's pretty obvious you think that democratic principles and rule of law still matter in SR, which is fine - but isn't really accurate to the world as depicted in editions prior to 4th. (the UCAS is basically a failed state.)

More to the point, no matter how incompetent an organization is (Haliburton?) if they spend enough money on the re-election campaigns, press junkets in exotic locations, and lobbying fees, enough elected officials will be sufficiently compromised that their contract is secure despite their insufficiencies.

[Saint Sithney]

I don't think killing a few guards is particularly "high profile" in this world.

~J

The Insurance Wars received massive media attention.
Maybe it would be more relevant to provide examples of happy white folk getting offed in number, but no one hearing or caring about it?

[Jericho Alar]

The Insurance Wars received massive media attention.
Maybe it would be more relevant to provide examples of happy white folk getting offed in number, but no one hearing or caring about it?

Universal Brotherhood, worldwide, 2050-2054? (ok, they heard about it *eventually*).

[Marcus]

ethics are subjective and relative. Lets face it Bushido isn't exactly what we would call a Moral High Ground, in the western sense. But an ideal exist as long as you say it exists and are willing to take action Supporting that ideal. Hand in hand with that is Consequences. You ever seen what happens to Cop Killers? Assuming the Job is not wetwork Leaving an opponent alive is 10 time more professional then just killing them to remove a possible witness. You don't know who's son or daughter that is. You don't know if you will need that guy tomorrow to help you on your next Job. You get caught in the Shadow business you get to put up for trial, its gonna be a lot easier to make those rolls if they have no real bodies for the prosecution to show against you.

Ever Heard of Counting Coup?

Now I agree there are times and places where shoot the big bad HAS to happen. But the Little KE security guard or the random Go Ganger is not such a liability that she/he needs to be double tapped out. The Rep lose and notoriety gain for shooting folks should discourage runners from doing to many bad things.

Lets also keep in mind this is a game, some game are more gritty and some are more Cinematic. The more gritty you get the more likely you are to have to start wacking folks to keep things in order. But always use less lethal weapons, the Corps pay the bills but most, possibly all, are still the enemy. Problems with Corps (And Ideals) is that while they may have Tax ID numbers, and they may be able to Own property, they are notoriously hard to put a bullet in.

[Drraagh]

I will admit it has been a while since I've read Lone Star, and I only skimmed SSG a week or so ago for the police side of things, but there are a couple things I would like to toss out there.

A lot of the 'Cops don't care' comes from a lot of the flavor text, if I recall. Various shadowland posts and the like. My problem with taking that as gospel is the same as looking at today's 'Pro-Marijuana' and 'Anti-Marijuana' websites and discussions. Each group quotes facts and situations that make their side look better and the other side look worse. These are criminals who are posting so they would likely have the most negative image for the cops.

Secondly, even if we put some stock into these flavor text entries, there are possibilities of good cops in the world as much as there are bad people. Some people go into security fields because they truly want to help people, and as such, I don't think the policies and practices of a 'We watch out for our bottom line' would stop them from that. But given how we are looking at a world from the eyes of people who see the advertisements of Lone Star securing the city as corporate propaganda, then we will focus on it that way.

In CP2020, for example, they had groups like E-Swat who come after cybernetic criminals who the normal cops can't handle. Then you've got other movies/TV shows/Anime who have different groups and weapons and approaches that are used against the special types that go out of control. For example: Robocop: Prime Directives miniseries had the Robo Hunters, a combat unit with speciality weapons to hunt down Robocop in case he went rogue.

As much as I remember SR's entries from what I've seen, usually, security templates aren't built to handle that sort of thing. Now, there's nothing stopping a GM from building something like that to cope with these issues, and in some versions of the world, the idea can matter. I mean, think about how much pirate trid there is out there, how much anti-corporate propaganda there is, how many people there are out there who may utilize the ability to assemble and protest against the corps, siting various examples of how they are abusing their power. The recording in Strange Days, as an example, would probably paint a negative image. Might, if I remember SSG, just get the rep transferred to another department, but then with the freedom of the trix, it could have whole sites popping up with face recognition systems to see if your LS officer had any civil suits or recordings against them or anything.

It's like I said earlier, good or bad and right and wrong are all based on your perception. Some people I talk to have bad memories of dealing with the police because of themselves or friends being busted for what they believe are minor charges while they ignore larger issues, while others have good memories of dealing with the cops for the help they did. Some people growing up in hard areas likely have worse memories because they see all the problems that the cops can't always deal with due to resources and the like, which would probably be considered C-D sectors. The question becomes are these people glad for the police doing what they can, in a 'It could always be worse' mentality, or are they more looking at a 'Why don't the cops ever do anything' mentality.

[AngelisStorm]

The thing that I've always wondered about (and which occasionally caused fights at our gaming table), was I-5: Fort Lewis. To my understanding, the south-west edge of Fort Lewis is the edge of UCAS territory. I-5 runs right through it. Today we know what the border looks like; in a hostile future the border is likely to be alot less friendly (at the very least with regards to "suprise" defenses. See: Disney & Federal buildings. Add: turrets and drones). A roving gang trying to run from NAN I-5 to UCAS I-5 (especially at night) seems like it would get eaten for lunch. You're basically running through what (could) be effectively a giant gunnery bunker. (And talk about the -litteral- troops not having to go far.)

Anyway, gangs and the police.

1. Who is complaining if all the witnesses are dead? "Where did mommy go?" "I don't know hunny, she went out driving last night, and didn't come up. The police are doing everything they can to find her." Maybe they find a car, probably not. Not just the SINless can disipear. (Which is easier: hiding a car and body when you're the police, or fighting people who can fight back?)

2. This is a for profit company. And they ain't exactly Black Water. On the one hand you have "trained" individuals (trained well enough to do their jobs, but the corp is trying to make money), and on the other hand you have individuals who have survived growing up in a hostile, 3rd world type combat zone. Sure, many or perhaps most live because they are in gangs (weak band together), but alot of them are probably pretty mean mofos, who know how to use a gun (and a Stinger).

3. What happens if you declare war on a violent group? Sure, you probably get most of them (informants and undercover agents rock). But what if they choose to retailate, instead of giving up? Days or weeks later, you have 6-12 independent (and perhaps simultaneous) attacks against cops, district precincts, perhaps civilians and/or the governer's building. HUGE bad PR. People get pissed, Lone Star (or whoever) gets massive funding. But what if they can't finish the job (Iraq, Afganistan) because of sympathetic populations, with huge access to weapons, many of them military (Vietnam). Public opinion will fall fast, when the "protectors of the innocent" can't protect them, and the violence continues, and probably escelates.

Cops rock at offense. But effectively the police are guardians. In 1st world countries they work because they can "go out" and get criminals. But in bad situations (for example, forward bases in Iraq) you are completely surrounded. You have no idea when the attack will come to you.
We have the Barrens. We have to work from the idea that the problem of the Barrens simply can't be solved (we know what happens when you take tanks, and even choppers, into built up, home ground areas with angry denizens. See: Warsaw Ghetto).

So the gangs have access to weapons, plenty of personnel (most of which is expendable, but plentiful), and a area to retreat to which is relatively safe. Honestly, Lone Star would probably resort to Shadowrunners to make an example out of head gang leaders. Just as corps probably hire Shadowrunner teams to target other teams who hurt them to bad (out of towners, probably, so they don't have conflicting loyalty).

*tosses his 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in*

[Ascalaphus]

Good points!

Crime reduction is always a two-sides solution of making crime less attractive, and there being alternatives for crime. The latter is rather out of the question in SR (no-one wants to pay for it).

Weapons are fairly cheap, including things that can scare the cops. A police helicopter costs 106,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , anti-vehicle rockets cost 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

In a violent environment, not having gang protection is close to suicide; it's a classical prisoner's dilemma. Either you ally with or join a gang (or pay protection), or you're a victim.

As for corporations: you can destroy a gang, but a new one will take it's place. Paying off a gang is cheaper than the collateral damage they do when they turn against you.

Not to mention that Ares probably doesn't want tight weapon control laws; that'd reduce their sales.

[Fuchs]

Warsaw showed twice (1943 and 1944) what happens when you take soldiers against an outgunned, but highly-motivated enemy holed up in a city and no one caring about collateral damage: The military wins.

Honestly, if we are going the "SINless do not count" route, then the Barrens offer no protection. There's also a lot of differences between a trained soldier, and a punk that grew up in the streets - see Somalia "Black Hawk Down", casualty rates were terrible for the Somalis.

It's all nice and dandy to be mean, and dangerous on the streets, but it doesn't matter much in war.

[AngelisStorm]

If you have the option to shell a area from the outside (say, if someone had decided to surround Kowloon walled city with tanks, and start firing) of course the area is going to loose. The comparison was that taking tanks into heavily built up areas is normally a bad idea. Fighting period in those circumstances is a bad idea. And the Redmond Barrens are not a small area, and they aren't surrounded (since they are back on 1 long side by the NAN).

If just burning the barrens to the ground was an option, it probably would have been done already. I believe Italy has an even worse area than the Redmond Barrens, and even there (small city states) no one has done it.

Highly trained American soldiers vs. mean civilians with AK's. Yeah, we "won." Same way we won Vietnam. Casualties were grossly in our favor. But we aren't talking soldiers, we're talking Lone Star cops. Which I believe are, overall, not as well trained as today's police. (Of course it depends on how you play Lone Star).

It's not about "mean," it's about survival versus training (and not extensive training). Would SWAT and FRT totally own the Barrens? For awhile, of course. But we know that Lone Star only goes in the Barrens occasionally, and when they do it's by suprise, with huge force, and they don't stay long. Tracking down a couple of hundred people in hiding is not quick. And those street punks have access to military equipment.

[Fuchs]

Having access to something, and being trained in its use is not the same. And if your goal is to flatten a "crime haven" without any regard for the people inside, then you can "win" easily.

If we're talking SR canon - Gunderson Corp in Miami showed that you can scare the slum population that badly that they'll protect tourists rather than see another "retributive strike" against gangs that prey on tourists, and the resulting collateral damage.

[Warlordtheft]

Warsaw showed twice (1943 and 1944) what happens when you take soldiers against an outgunned, but highly-motivated enemy holed up in a city and no one caring about collateral damage: The military wins.

Honestly, if we are going the "SINless do not count" route, then the Barrens offer no protection. There's also a lot of differences between a trained soldier, and a punk that grew up in the streets - see Somalia "Black Hawk Down", casualty rates were terrible for the Somalis.

It's all nice and dandy to be mean, and dangerous on the streets, but it doesn't matter much in war.

Then you have counter examples: AMerican Revolutionary War, Vietnahm, Afghanistan, the US operations in Somalia in the Early 90's. In those instances the the trained soldiers lost due to their powers that be realizing that they cannot win in the long term. And the costs would be too high. THe difference in the Warsaw uprising is that the Nazis didn't care (nor did the russians) about playing nice.

Keep in mind that for the Somali's, the withdrawal of the US troops from Somalia was the victory not the casualty ratio. If it costs you 100 nuyen to train and equip a trooper to a certain level of proficiency and he shwacks 10 punks before going down, is it cost effective?

[Fuchs]

Washington had an army at Yorktown, not some punks holed up in a city.

And that's my entire point: If you don't care how many SINless you kill while dealing with gangs then you won't lose.

Now, do the corps and cops care about SINless, or not?

[kzt]

So the gangs have access to weapons, plenty of personnel (most of which is expendable, but plentiful), and a area to retreat to which is relatively safe. Honestly, Lone Star would probably resort to Shadowrunners to make an example out of head gang leaders. Just as corps probably hire Shadowrunner teams to target other teams who hurt them to bad (out of towners, probably, so they don't have conflicting loyalty).

They actually don't have anywhere to retreat to that is relatively safe. There is a cost to going into the barrens, but the vast majority of the casualties won't be on the Lone Star side. Consider Black Hawk Down, with Mogadishu as the Barrens. After just about everything that could go wrong did, and without the heavy armor or CAS that should have been there the US had 19 killed and 84 wounded. The other side had 700 killed and 1000 wounded. And this was about the best possible conditions for the Somalis.

Given that the average SR gang (per the books) has a few hundred members and LS & the UCAS military are noted for being significantly less restrained in the use of violence than the modern US military I can't see a gang that decides to show LS "Our territory is sacred!" not getting their heads handed to them.

[Jericho Alar]

Washington had an army at Yorktown, not some punks holed up in a city.

And that's my entire point: If you don't care how many SINless you kill while dealing with gangs then you won't lose.

Now, do the corps and cops care about SINless, or not?

They don't care about their votes; the SINless themselves are very useful to the corps (and by extension, the 'cops') for a variety of other reasons that have to do with such ephemeral things as cautionary tales, cheap labor, consumers, etc. - Hell, from a certain cynical point of view I-5 is probably a tourist attraction (from a safe distance..) "look at the downtrodden masses honey; aren't you glad Daddy is a good corporate drone?"

The Barrens is *great* for business (especially for Ares Macrotech and Aztechnology.) there's a reason the ident verification systems in stuffer shacks are terrible after all...

[edit]I'd argue that lonestar and a metroplex home guard are significantly less trained than a typical US marine, ranger, seal and paratroop joint-strike force detachment. Now, in sr4 land KE absolutely could lean no firewatch to go do a run through the barrens for them; but as mentioned before, Ares probably likes the barrens for their propensity to increase sales of handguns...

[edit2] I also think most of the people arguing against lonestar aren't doing it because they think the gangers would win; just that they think lonestar wouldn't find it cost-effective. IF LS were to go in and seriously try to flatten the barrens, they could. It's not worth doing.

[kzt]

I'd argue that lonestar and a metroplex home guard are significantly less trained than a typical US marine, ranger, seal and paratroop joint-strike force detachment. Now, in sr4 land KE absolutely could lean no firewatch to go do a run through the barrens for them; but as mentioned before, Ares probably likes the barrens for their propensity to increase sales of handguns...

There is pretty much no real money in small arms. There is a reason why all the companies that are known for making handguns are at most medium sized companies. Even the entire holding company for Fabrique Nationale (which makes most of the riles and machineguns for the US military), The Herstal Group, employees a total of about 3000 people. And this includes a lot more than just guns. There really isn't a lot of money there.

[Ascalaphus]

Like I pointed out above, it costs about 100K to buy a police helicopter, and less than 5K in missiles to destroy it. (That would give you 4 shots with anti-vehicle missiles.)

Lone Star is unlikely risk those losses if it doesn't have to.



Also, it might be bad press to be spotted napalming fellow Americans.

"But they're the SINless criminals!", a Lone Star PR guy says.

Funny, how a Knight Errant sponsored media team took a wholly different view of that...

[Sixgun_Sage]

There is pretty much no real money in small arms. There is a reason why all the companies that are known for making handguns are at most medium sized companies. Even the entire holding company for Fabrique Nationale (which makes most of the riles and machineguns for the US military), The Herstal Group, employees a total of about 3000 people. And this includes a lot more than just guns. There really isn't a lot of money there.

Yes, but Ares is so much more than just the guns themselves, after all, there are peripherals, ammo, their combat/ survival clothing lines, vehicles, entertainment stuff... (you cannot tell me there isn't an AR game focused around Firewatch that you or I would recognize as logical extension of the Rainbow Six games.). People in the barrens will buy the handguns for the good quality at fairly low prices, people living nearby for the same reason as well as the peripherals and various off-shoots because they start to identify with the product..... the plain old fact of the matter is that a place like the Redmond Barrens is good for Ares' bottom line.

[Jericho Alar]

There is pretty much no real money in small arms. There is a reason why all the companies that are known for making handguns are at most medium sized companies. Even the entire holding company for Fabrique Nationale (which makes most of the riles and machineguns for the US military), The Herstal Group, employees a total of about 3000 people. And this includes a lot more than just guns. There really isn't a lot of money there.

Profit is still profit; and I'm pretty sure if you took a quick poll of which machineguns and rockets are being used in the barrens the answer there would *also* be Ares =P

[Semerkhet]

Can we consider any of the real world's most notorious slums to be equivalent to the Redmond Barrens? Without even doing research I can think of a handful of cities that have slums that might qualify: Mumbai, Mexico City, Manila, Rio, Lagos. I cannot recall a major military incursion into any of these areas. The only recent police incursion into one of these areas that I can recall is the one in Rio that ended with a police helicopter being shot down.

The real world examples would seem to indicate that it is not worth it for present-day governments to "take out" the gangs and criminal syndicates in their slums. My question to the discussants here is: what is different about the situation in the shadowrun world that would change this equation to, as some posters have suggested, make it worthwhile for a security contractor to level a slum to take out the criminals?