 Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You, the Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner |
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 Apr 8 2005, 12:31 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850  |
Yeah...the Devil has all the really good musicians, too... |
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Apr 8 2005, 12:57 PM
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#52
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Funny, I must have missed that part in Neuromancer.
Sure you can. If you tweak canon a bit and focus on only the bad parts (despite canon SR saying that most people like the corps, at least to some extent, and most LS cops are actually no worse than today's cops), you can play a Robin Hood campaign. the setting is pretty versatile. I'm just saying that this isn't really a natural for the setting, and that most people don't play it like this.
Not to mention the best parties. And better drinks. |
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Apr 8 2005, 01:47 PM
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#53
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Sorry, when I was mentioning "Cyberpunk and Shadowrun stuff," I meant sourcebooks, character archetypes, and canon adventures from the RPGs, specifically. Since we were talking about running and playing in games, not reading novels. And, yes. I understand that it's not natural for the current setting, that most people don't want to play like that, and that it requires tweaking. That's why the sentence starts with "if you were to go out of your way," and why the post itself ends with "if you wanted to," and my own feelings on it (ie, I don't want to). |
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Apr 8 2005, 03:44 PM
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#54
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
A very quiet assumption going absolutely unchallenged: is all morality to be measured by laws? Are there never such things as immoral laws?
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Apr 8 2005, 03:46 PM
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#55
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
There are, but who breaks those? :silly:
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Apr 8 2005, 04:36 PM
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#56
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Nah, what's wrong with racial segregation laws in apartheid South Africa? Or, for that matter, those racial purity laws in Nazi Germany? Paper is patient. You can issue the most ludicrous laws. Laws aren't always moral. then again, is morality firm? I think not. Morality is what you are taught, it's not a genetic trait. Without being taught morals, there aren't any. |
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Apr 8 2005, 04:55 PM
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#57
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Yes. And most of them get passed while good people watch. Why? Because the rights of the many get stripped away one line at a time, day by day, year by year. Until you have a Shadowrunnish future where average people have very few 'rights'.
That’s because you were busy reading a book that has nothing to do with Shadowrun. In 1st ed the Robin Hood aspect of the game was played up. The editions have since homogenized the game so that it's all shades of grey. Personally I like playing Robin Hood characters who commit crimes for the greater good. |
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Apr 8 2005, 05:16 PM
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#58
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
He said CYBERPUNK, not Shadowrun. See for yourself:
That's wat I was referring to, okay? |
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Apr 9 2005, 05:11 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
While I’ll attempt to address these points of yours, let me list my points about why it’s a good idea to incapacitate instead of kill: it leaves less evidence, it’s less suspicious, it reduces the effectiveness of guard response, it reduces how hard the corporation will look for you, and it works better against mages. “It leaves less evidence.” Someone who has been stabbed or shot will leave bloodstains on the floor beneath them and frequently on the area around them, which will often include the attacker if they are close. An unconscious guard can be hidden. A dead guard will leave obvious signs in the area that runners are present and attempts at cleanup will likely result in more blood being transferred to the runner’s clothing and could leave footprints as well. “It’s less suspicious.” An unconscious guard may merely be suffering a health problem or have had an accident. The initial impulse will be to check on their condition. A dead guard lying in a pool of blood leads to the immediate triggering of alarms. “It reduces the effectiveness of guard response.” If you kill one guard, the other guards are more motivated to find you and kill you. If you incapacitate one guard, but do not kill him, at least one other guard will be busy tending to his injuries and/or getting him to safety. “It reduces how hard the corporation will look for you.” Ultimately, the corporation wants to keep its expenses down. The more damage you inflict on them they more likely they are to find it profitable to hunt you down so you can’t do it to them again. Public image is also important to the corporation. The less damage you inflict, the better the chances they have of keeping the run out of the press and thus avoiding their stock taking a dip. It’s a lot easier to cover up a dozen guards being knocked out than to cover up the deaths of a dozen guards. Employee morale is also important. The corporation has to act like it cares about its employees so they’re more effective and productive. If the runners did minimal damage, the corporation can just fire a scapegoat. If there are dead bodies everywhere, the corporation will have to spend some time and effort tracking down and eliminating the killers. Finally, corporations (including Lone Star) don’t have the budget to spend infinite amounts on every single crime that occurs. The bigger, more public, and more violent crimes will get more time and manpower spent on solving them. “It works better against mages.” A wounded mage can heal themselves. A mage with several boxes of stun can choose to use a stimpatch, but he’s nowhere near as eager to try it as your average security guard. Now to your points.
People can recover from ruined lives. I’ve not met one yet who can recover from a destroyed life. Ultimately, it’s not a black/white issue, but shades of gray. Shadowrunners, like real world criminals, will judge themselves based on these shades of gray. There are reasons child molesters have to be separated from the general prison populace. There are reasons that organized crime figures have no problem killing their rivals, but consider their rival’s children off limits.
During the run, the other guards who will be highly motivated to kill you before you kill any more of them. After the run, any surviving guards who were friends of Ms. SecGuard. And the corporation itself, if you caused enough damage. And while your example with the family is true, the more people you kill, the more likely it is that some of them will have friends and family members with the skills or influence to make life tougher for the runners. What if Bob Miscellaneous was a reporter, for instance?
It’s not cost effective for the corporation to fire all the security guards. It is cost effective to boot out/demote/whatever one or two scapegoats. The top choice would be anyone who obviously screwed up and they’re not usually particularly competent enemies. The second choice is to pick someone who already had problems with the administration and make them the scapegoat. Which leads to the next point about a fired security guard seeking revenge. While that former guard could seek revenge against the specific runner (or runners in general), she could equally well blame the person who fired her, her boss, her coworkers, or even the corporation as a whole. In fact, it’s more likely if they were picked as the scapegoat specifically because of previous conflicts with the administration. It’s also a lot easier to find her former employer than it is to find the runners, and Ms. SecGuard also knows a lot more about her former employer’s abilities, location, and resources.
Only if they’re fanatics who fight to the death. An unconscious security guard knows the runners could have killed him, but didn’t and she probably still has some Stun modifiers. Neither of these will make her eager to go looking for you. Another consideration is that guard who is unconscious is only one stimpatch away from being in a condition where you can question them. The same is not true of dead guards.
At the least, it’s a decision that once made cannot be unmade. If it was a mistake, you cannot undo it.
Unless you’re using the rules for Lone Star response times. :D
Actually, witnesses are not your primary problem. They’ll generally manage to get your gender and metahumanity right, but not much more, even if you have made no attempt to hide or disguise your identity. Some will be able to pick you out of a police lineup, but if you’re already in custody for that lineup, witness identification is the least of your worries. And eliminating a witness does not guarantee you have really eliminated a witness. Real people have survived being shot in the head twice, then run over by criminals who attempted to eliminate them. Unless you are willing spend the time, effort, and ammo to make certain that everyone you downed is dead, you may have left a witness behind. Cameras are a far bigger problem than witnesses. Killing witnesses usually only means the cameras have recorded you committing additional crimes. And you can’t guarantee that you’ve eliminated all cameras on site. |
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Apr 9 2005, 07:11 AM
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#60
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Just on a side note, what's with all the physical mask spells? I always get a laugh at all the pictures of runners 'penetrating the facility' with mohawks, shaved heads, sunglasses, whatever. Ever hear of a ski mask? And that doesn't leave a spell signature trace either.
'Look! I look cool on that tape! Oh Drek, that's the security tape.... ummm. ..guys... can we go find those before we leave???" |
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Apr 9 2005, 07:39 AM
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#61
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Physical Mask is fine, but the mage is normally pretty screwed while sustaining 4 or 5 of them for the entire run. Either that or he has to outlay quite a bit of money and Karma for the appropriate Foci to sustain them for him.
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Apr 9 2005, 01:00 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Blah blah blah....I'd just like to add...
Ever heard of Nerf guns? |
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Apr 9 2005, 02:39 PM
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#63
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Or have an elemental or four or five to sustain them. (Something that's been mostly overlooked in the lastest "Hermetics cost too much" thread ;) ) Edit: I am suddenly so tempted to open "Nerf Guns" as a Pistols specialisation, and see what happens at the extremes of when "if you keep playing with those things, you'll lose an eye!" |
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Apr 9 2005, 02:42 PM
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#64
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm just gonna hop out on a limb here, and state that I'm pretty sure the original poster meant "when speaking of weapons that are combat viable and of any sort of vague usefullness to Shadowrunners, there's no such thing as non-lethal, only less-lethal." I also think you knew that, but thanks for your attempt to add to the conversation. |
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Apr 9 2005, 02:48 PM
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#65
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Which can also be pretty expensive in and of itself. It also would require the Elemental(s) to be present in Astral space the entire time, which isn't necessarily a Good Thing™. |
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Apr 9 2005, 02:52 PM
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#66
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
True.
Although (sheer perversity here) what are the limitations on a single casting of Physical Mask? Potentially, that could at least reduce the number of elementals bumming around the astral mall to one? |
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Apr 9 2005, 03:03 PM
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#67
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Are you talking about a single spell affecting the whole team? If so, then it doesn't work that way with Physical Mask. One spell for each person would be required. The limitations are as normal ... +2 TN (+1 with Focused Concentration), or a Sustaining Focus.
How many spells can a single Elemental sustain at one time? One per service? If so, you are still looking at using all, or nearly all of its services just sustain the spells. Are Elementals limited to sustaining spells of their Force or lower? These are all limitations. |
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Apr 9 2005, 03:21 PM
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#68
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
I think in many cases the novels fluffed over that part ... in parallel to common interpretations of, say, Improved Invisibility. Do most GMs here require a separate casting for each person affected, so long as they're all affected at the same time or spell dropped for all at the same time?
But with individual effect, your post argues a good reason for someone who's creating a character to act as a team mage, within a team that values disguise of various kinds, to develop some form of group (area?) effect version asap. That brings the modifier right back down to a single sustained spell, at the cost of only however many karma the spell Force requires -- or possibly even less, if combined with an astral quest. |
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Apr 9 2005, 03:42 PM
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#69
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I do believe Physical Mask is specifically a single person only spell. You could develop an area effect Invisibility spell, but an area effect Physical Mask that covers multiple people would result in 4 or 5 identical people trying to infiltrate the facility. Magic is supposed to have limitations, otherwise it would be too overpowering. |
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Apr 9 2005, 04:09 PM
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#70
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Implicitly, it can't be "area" effect: since not everything the magician sees would -- or should -- go invisible.
Not necessarily. Suppose the magician's conception takes the form of a group or type rather than "clone"? For example, give each person janitor's coveralls and long hair and shift their features in a common direction (ie. broaden noses, to suggest NAN ancestry). It's something done in common for everyone, like a template: but doing this same thing for each person doesn't leave them looking absolutely identical. |
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Apr 9 2005, 04:23 PM
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#71
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I wouldn't allow it. If you want to go that route, it'd probably be better to use Trid Phantasm. The Drain is about right for what you want.
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Apr 10 2005, 05:14 PM
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#72
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Kill one enemy and you remove one enemy from the fight. Wound one enemy and you remove two enemies from the fight. A security team can simply leave behind a dead body when in persuit of rubbers, but they would have to leave someone behind to tend to the wounded.
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Apr 10 2005, 05:25 PM
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#73
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's true for pursuit situations (though it's often better to take the opportunity to kill both the original target and the person tending to them), but doesn't work nearly so well when you're moving towards rather than away from the enemy.
Also, keep in mind that a wounded enemy that needs tending is at Deadly damage. ~J |
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Apr 10 2005, 05:26 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
I know that's a typo, but damn does it ever conjure up some hilarious imagery. That Face girl must be doing her work mighty well. To weigh in on this, I'm in the 'all depends on your situation' camp. Sometimes it's better to incapacitate than kill. Sometime's you just have to shed some enemy blood. There are obviously downsides to both, including the variable amount of enemies you come out of it with and the escalating immensity of your crimes. Generally I would consider that no matter how nonlethal the runners are, their opposition is going to have no such scruples. Unless they want the runners alive for some reason, the secguards are going to be shooting to kill, especially if the runners appear to be holding heavy weaponry of their own (an assault rifle that fires only gel rounds still looks like an assault rifle). If they're trying to kill you, why aren't you trying to kill them? (insert appreciably pacifist reasoning here). |
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Apr 10 2005, 05:33 PM
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#75
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Furthermore, if the guards are packing lethal rounds, even if they notice the runners are packing gel rounds I don't think they're going to say "oh, wait, lemme eject this perfectly good magazine and slap in the gel round magazine I've got somewhere around here."
~J |
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