 Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You, the Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner |
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 Apr 10 2005, 05:56 PM
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#76
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
Btw is anyone else getting seriously dizzy from all the different topics being supernova'ed from an initial proposition of "not killing because it's more moral/fewer complications/etc is a false tenet" / "shadowrunners aren't nice people"? :) Let's see:
* Yes they are / no they're not / end justifying the means / more moral than the system / more moral than what the shadowrunner was doing before / relative morality (the corps do it anyway) * playing Shadowrun vs shadowrunning, running for money, the purely defensive "runner" * law/corp regulation: complications, enforcement, deterance, morality (/personal apathy), those damn witnesses * the fallacy of the non-lethal. (Anyone remember that stipulation in Dunkelzahn's will? and linked in one of the newly developed weapons from SotA 2064?) * relevance of initial runner choice in final NPC body count: should it matter whether they set out to incapacitate or kill to them / to the outcome? Will/should sec-types or L-S respond differently to runners using non-lethal methods ... or will they even notice? * usefulness and validity of various disguise-type spells. (Btw Fortune: the one you suggest for what I'm devil's advocating requires voluntary subjects, so that one's out.) * professionalism and bottom line morality: aka have you seen how much this kind of ammo costs??! * personal accountability: runners, corps (or corp executives/management-types), others? Wow :D And they're all relevant. This is the kind of thing that happens when you start with a good topic and you let yourself see where the tangents take you :) |
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Apr 10 2005, 07:46 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
Well, if I was chief of security, I’d want to know how the runners got in and what they were trying to accomplish. If they haven’t been massacring my secgaurds I’d like to capture them alive for questioning. There can even be advantages to releasing them afterwards.
Agreed. And runners with grenade launchers, machine guns, or rockets will receive a warning shot through the forehead.
Actually, my posted reasons had nothing to do with pacifism. And I’d use different tactics with a street gang. Whether you killed one, or just knocked them out the gang’s rep has taken a hit so they’re going to be coming after you. Not that there aren’t times to use non-lethal force there as well. |
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Apr 10 2005, 08:09 PM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Under most circumstances it really doesn't matter. If there isn't enough info to figure out how they got in, they're either ultra-pro (which means you probably won't be able to catch them either) or you'd better start cleaning out your desk. With regard to why they're there, it only matters if there isn't supposed to be any reason to think that whatever's inside is valuable or important. ~J |
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Apr 10 2005, 09:22 PM
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#79
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Phantasm and Trid Phantasm most definitely do not require voluntary subjects and/or targets. I believe you must be thinking of Entertainment/Trid Entertainment. |
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Apr 10 2005, 09:27 PM
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#80
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
One think I heard early on here that bears repeating is the scapegoating aspect. I seriously doubt that a large corp is going to lay the blame of a serious breech of security on a single guard, or even a team of guards. In most cases they're going to go higher up the food chain, simply because 1) the grunts themselves were likely following proper proceedure anyway*, and 2) firing low-level employees isn't satisfying to a corp or government's bloodlust, and "doesn't solve the fundamental problem." The person who likely gets fired/reprimanded for a major break-in or security failure is going to be a guy behind a desk somewhere, a chief of security or something, someone the runners will never likely see. In the end, it doesn't matter to him whether the runners kill a dozen guards or just incapacitate them; he's gonna get fired or reprimanded either way.
As for the "fallacy" of non-lethal drawing less heat and making less enemies, let me pose this question: who tends to draw more media/police investigation: thieves or serial killers? *-This assumes that the whole thing *wasn't* some pooe low-level schmuck's fault. If it was, all bets are off, and the guy kinda deserved it for not doing his job in the first place. |
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Apr 10 2005, 09:27 PM
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#81
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
I was. You're right. Sorry about that.
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Apr 10 2005, 09:36 PM
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#82
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Runners aren't serial killers. They aren't even spree killers. They're mass murderers, who tend to garner fairly little attention (how many people here not from the Greater Boston Area know the name Stephen Flemmi? I could be wrong, but my guess is not many).
~J |
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Apr 10 2005, 09:42 PM
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#83
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The more important question is who sent them. Runners are usually hired by someone. Taking out the runners does nothing to eliminate their Johnson, who may very well try again with a more competant team.
Damn you, James Densmore! :evil: |
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Apr 10 2005, 09:56 PM
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#84
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Capturing the runners does nothing if whoever employed the Johnson is any legitimate threat. There's a reason that Johnsons and runner teams are used instead of direct hirings or in-house forces.
~J |
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Apr 11 2005, 12:01 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Really? Wow.... and here I thought a joke could be made here. Silly me. :please: |
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Apr 11 2005, 12:05 PM
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#86
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Depends on whether or not you consider the executives at Enron theives. *cheesy grin* |
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Apr 11 2005, 05:36 PM
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#87
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It can provide some intelligence which could give them some idea of who hired the runners. They could get the same informatin from a detailed investigation but that would take more time. They could discover who the Johnson is from a simple mindprobe and then kill the runners. Use the matrix and some footwork to track and mindprobe the johnson and find out who his contact is. If the enemy was stupid enough to use an in-house Johnson then then investigation can end there. If not, they can still use a matrix serch to trace the Johnson's employer. Against another megacorp this information probably can't be acted upon in the corporate court, there are too many layers of deniability. However, an annoying fringe enviromentaist group could be destroyed easily enough. There are also indirect actions that can be taken. Say Corp A has a top secret lab that has b een compromised by runners. They don't know who sent them but it was either Corp B, Corp C, or Envriomentalist Group D. If it was Corp B or C then the runners were after the ultra-secret super-doo-dad and they'll have to move the lab to a new location. If it was Envriomentalist group D then they were trying to free some monkeys and can be safely bombarded into oblivion. The later is more cost effective. If corps B and C havn't atacked the lab then moving it is just a waste of resources. Information is power. It is best to have the most information as quickly as possible |
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Apr 11 2005, 05:40 PM
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#88
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The entire purpose of Johnsons and Runners is that that information isn't available through them.
~J |
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Apr 11 2005, 05:50 PM
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#89
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The purpose of runners and johnson's is plausable deniability. A lot of people know about the illicit dealings of the megacorps. For the most part the megacorps all know who is doing what to whom. The difference is that runners and johnsons provide enough insulation that such infractions can't be proven in the Corporate Court. Even if there was an indictment the megacorp in question could just scapegoat some pencil pushers and say it was a few rouge employees secretly violating company policy. Its impossible to completly erase a trail of contact. If a corp hired some runners the runners can be limked back to them if one follows the trail long enough. The best that can be done is make the trail as long as possible and cut off loose ends. The corp could have the Johnson or a higher link in the chain killed, but those people still have friends and they still make credstick transactions. The evidence become more tennous as one goes further up the chain but it doesn't disappear. |
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Apr 11 2005, 07:56 PM
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#90
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
Neuromancer did ultimately end on a good note. A stagnant company got a new direction, a new life form was born, and a couple of nasty psychotics got their just deserts.
The idea that guards will be more motivated to hunt down and kill shadowrunners who have killed other guards ignores the possibility that the guards may decide that their paycheck isn't worth getting killed by some psycho runners and slack off as much as they can get away with instead. |
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Apr 12 2005, 03:03 AM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
On the contrary, it always matters why the runners are there. Are they here to steal a prototype, copy data about it, or sabotage it? Is that sabotage supposed to be subtle? Which prototype are they trying to steal? All of this can tell you who hired them (or at least narrow the suspect list) and what you need to do to reduce the chances of the next runner team succeeding. If the runners are here for an personnel extraction, it’s very important to know who they were supposed to extract and whether that extraction was voluntary or not. Knowledge is power. Live runners can provide a wealth of info that will help you as chief of security do your job better. There are also (sometimes) reasons to let runners go after questioning. First, you could simply tell them they are trading their life for information. If you keep that deal, future runners are more likely to surrender and spill their information. Sure, you could just have a mage with mind probe rip it out of the runner’s skulls, but do you trust the mage not to lie to you? Do you trust the mage not to mindprobe you? (I personally think mages with Mind Probe have a lot higher accidental death rate than average.) Also, released runners can be used as deniable assets later. Note that it’s much cheaper to tell them they have a cortex bomb installed than to actually install one. Released runners can be tracked. Stupid runners can be tricked into thinking they managed their own clever escape and got what they originally came for. Won’t their Johnson be pleased with all the fake data you let them steal? Greedy runners could be co-opted to do the same thing. |
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Apr 12 2005, 03:24 AM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
This is why Corporate Politics is a very important skill for a chief of security. If you’ve established the proper connections and have been persistently requesting more and better personnel, training, equipment, etc. then you can ride it out, pointing to the bean-counters in Accounting. If only they hadn’t denied your repeated requests for something that cost thousands, the company wouldn’t have lost millions. Just remember, it’s never your fault. If a guard blundered, it’s because Human Resources didn’t hire someone who matched up to the standards you had asked for. If a security device failed to detect the runners, clearly it’s defective, and that can’t be your fault because you wanted a better model. If all that fails, blame your predecessor. Politicians do it all the time. And don’t forget that discrete surveillance of other people in the company can provided a wealth of job-saving leverage when you need it. Do not go gentle into that good night, since a security chief knows enough that they’re usually retired with a large caliber round to the back of the skull. |
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Apr 12 2005, 05:01 AM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
To me, this approaches the question from the wrong angle. The important enemies garnered from killing are not the family or close friends of the deceased. Here in Australia, a mere theft of thousands of dollars from an armoured van is unlikely to garner any press coverage beyond a couple of column inches on about page 8 of a newspaper. Kill one of the guards of the security van during the heist, however, and you get front page coverage in every major paper for three days. The fact that it was an "execution style" killing, probably because the guard could have identified the killer, made it even worse. This happened several weeks ago, and I think it's very relevant. Sure, corps are very money-focussed in SR. Perhaps the Australian experience is atypical. I still think that the PR implications of killing during a run are significant. A team that kills guards is far more likely to create a manhunt than one that simply steals things and does property damage. Of course, this shouldn't prevent the use of deadly force when it's stopping you from being the victim of deadly force. But it is by no means unimportant. |
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Apr 12 2005, 05:07 AM
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#94
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We're looking at a world in which the Insurance War could exist. I don't think a guard's death is even going to make more than a blurb in the news by itself, or even a dozen such deaths.
~J |
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Apr 12 2005, 06:03 AM
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#95
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Assuming the story even makes it to the press at all. The Corps have a vested interest in covering up this type of thing.
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Apr 12 2005, 06:30 AM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Instruction for a proper run.
1: Fake work order for city water. Add tranquilizers and hyper to water supply. 2: Drop nuerostun aerosol tanks in main circulation after decking to turn off the chemical sniffers. 3: Enter facility. 4: If it is not unconscious, loopy, or twitching, use EX-EX, AV, or APDS as directed until it is very still. Rockets, Missiles, LAWS, grenades, retractable spurs, swords, combat axes, or C12 might be needed 5: Plant receipts in Secuirity directors office (or as high up as you can go) as well as 10% of your run fee. (as a frame job) 6: Remember to loot everyone on your way out. 7: Collect your fee 8: Recycle your loot |
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Apr 12 2005, 04:53 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
What no flames? :P
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Apr 12 2005, 09:12 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Nah, sounds good to me. :vegm:
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Apr 13 2005, 04:29 AM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Oh no the world is gonna end! it's the seventh sign!
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Apr 13 2005, 09:08 AM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
With the way dosage works in SR, I don't think you can easily take out a compounds watersupply.
Also, how will you time the effect? Gas in the airconditioning is a classic. Love that. :D |
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