spell tactics question - Dumpshock Forums

spell tactics question

SentineloftheMou... SentineloftheMountain View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 05:43 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 167 Joined: 11-August 04 Member No.: 6,556	Hi. It is my understanding that in order for a LOS spell to affect a person the mage must be aware of the person. My question is this. If a mage uses a Stunball spell to stun an enemy group behind cover in a combat situation, but only sees those enemy people who return fire at the runner's team from his current location behind cover then can the mage use a familiar/ally spirit and the sense link power to order the familiar behind the enemy cover/barricades, so the mage is aware of the enemy targets behind cover. If he casts a Stunball spell from his current location into the middle of the enemy targets would the spell effect all the enemy targets the mage sees through the sense link with the familiar?? Just so we are clear. I am not talking about the mage casting spells "through" the familiar. The spell originates from the mage's current location. The familiar would be outside the area of effect, so it does not take damage from the spell. What would you do as a GM in this situation??

Fortune View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 05:46 PM Post #2
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	It doesn't matter whether the mage is or isn't aware of the target (in the case of Combat spells). He specifically has to actually see the target, and have him in LOS to affect him with his Stunball.

Sharaloth View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 05:50 PM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093	I'd rule it similar to Detection spells: No casting using the sense-link power to target. Othwerise you get situations where a magician can send his ally spirit into a building and, say, manabolt a wetwork target without being within three miles of him (LOS is through the ally, but the spell is still cast by the magician and originates at his location). The ally could be used to gain tactical information about the positioning of the enemies behind cover, but since the mage's own senses shut down, he can't use that as spell targeting information. Now, if he really wanted to he could teach the ally a hefty stunball spell just for such an occasion...

GrinderTheTroll

Apr 12 2005, 06:10 PM

Post #4

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QUOTE (SentineloftheMountain)

Hi. It is my understanding that in order for a LOS spell to affect a person the mage must be aware of the person.

My question is this. If a mage uses a Stunball spell to stun an enemy group behind cover in a combat situation, but only sees those enemy people who return fire at the runner's team from his current location behind cover then can the mage use a familiar/ally spirit and the sense link power to order the familiar behind the enemy cover/barricades, so the mage is aware of the enemy targets behind cover.

If he casts a Stunball spell from his current location into the middle of the enemy targets would the spell effect all the enemy targets the mage sees through the sense link with the familiar??

Just so we are clear. I am not talking about the mage casting spells "through" the familiar. The spell originates from the mage's current location. The familiar would be outside the area of effect, so it does not take damage from the spell.

What would you do as a GM in this situation??

You can't use sense-linked powers for determining LOS for spell targets. What you'd need is something that can bend the light to let you see the potnetial targets. I might suggest creating a black hole with enough mass to bend the light in such a way to allow you to see around the corners.

I'd rule "No".

Fortune View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 06:21 PM Post #5
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Make one of your Ally's forms a big-ass mirror and hope that when he manifests it is angled correctly for you to use to gain LOS. :D

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 07:12 PM Post #6
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	another thing is that if one could use the spirit to target then what would be point be of ritual sorcery and similar?

Elfie View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 07:26 PM Post #7
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 1-April 03 From: Long Island, NY Member No.: 4,364	If stunball is an area of affect spell, is it possible to target it on an enemy that the mage can see and have it deal AoE damage to other enemies that the mage can't see but are within the blast area? For example, if three guards are standing shoulder to shoulder, but two are behind a wall and the third is in a doorway, can the mage target the one in the doorway and still affect the other two next to him?

Sharaloth

Apr 12 2005, 07:52 PM

Post #8

Moving Target

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nope. Only elemental manipulations can do that. For other spells, only targets visible to the casting magician are valid.

Edit: SR3 Page 182 has the pertinent quote:

QUOTE (SR3 Pg 182)

An area spell affects all valid targets within its radius. (snip) If a person or object in the area of effect is not a valid target, they are not affected by the spell. Someone completely concealed behind a wall within the radius of a Powerball spell would not be affected by the spell (since the caster cannot see them), even though the spell might reduce the wall to smoking rubble.

Area spells do not target people specifically, they target an area. All valid targets within that area are affected. So for that example, the spell is only centered on the guy in the doorway, and he gets blasted but good, but the two behind the wall are not valid targets, and wouldn't be affected at all.

SentineloftheMou... SentineloftheMountain View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 07:53 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 167 Joined: 11-August 04 Member No.: 6,556	Effie's question above is the main reason for me suggesting this tactic. Any thoughts on this??

GrinderTheTroll

Apr 12 2005, 08:04 PM

Post #10

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Elfie)

If stunball is an area of affect spell, is it possible to target it on an enemy that the mage can see and have it deal AoE damage to other enemies that the mage can't see but are within the blast area? For example, if three guards are standing shoulder to shoulder, but two are behind a wall and the third is in a doorway, can the mage target the one in the doorway and still affect the other two next to him?

Combat spells *require* you have LOS for them to effect anything. You can toss a Force 10 Manaball down the end of a hallway and dispatch the 2 guards you see but won't effect the 8 more you can't see 1m around the corner.

On the other hand, tossing a Force 10 Fireball (or other Manipulation) down the same hallway, the effects "radiate outward from a single point" to the maximum area of effect (usually Magic attribute) regaurdless of whether you can see the others it will effect.

Manip also tend to have slightly higher drain and elemental effects to make the results much more "enjoyable" after you get the party started.

Combat spells are "all or nothing" while Manips "wander" to find their targets.

Magus View Member Profile	Apr 12 2005, 08:07 PM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644	There is also the application of Ritual Sorcery with a material link from the subjects. For example in a firefight a few of the opposition may have been shot, pick up some blood and try it that way. Yes it does take a bit longer but if they are holed up in a good defensive position and going to be there for a bit. Take your self to a secured area and hit them that way.

Elfie

Apr 13 2005, 01:29 PM

Post #12

Moving Target

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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

Combat spells *require* you have LOS for them to effect anything. You can toss a Force 10 Manaball down the end of a hallway and dispatch the 2 guards you see but won't effect the 8 more you can't see 1m around the corner.

On the other hand, tossing a Force 10 Fireball (or other Manipulation) down the same hallway, the effects "radiate outward from a single point" to the maximum area of effect (usually Magic attribute) regaurdless of whether you can see the others it will effect.

That's exactly what I was looking for. Hmm, my Sky Father shaman already has Lightning Bolt, maybe I should look into Lightning Ball (or was it Nova, I don't have the books on me) for some fun fireworks.

Critias View Member Profile	Apr 13 2005, 02:07 PM Post #13
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	Just be ready to suck hard on the Drain-pipe.

Eyeless Blond

Apr 13 2005, 02:39 PM

Post #14

Decker on the Threshold

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When it comes to Sense-link targetting and such, keep in mind the rule at the end of page 181:

QUOTE

Metahuman vision enhancements can also extend line of sight, but not spells like Clairvoyance or any other spells which alter vision.

Remember? The rule that the Insivability "FAQ" answer forgot about? :)

Demosthenes

Apr 13 2005, 02:54 PM

Post #15

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And if you want to get a bee in your bonnet about the area of effect combat spells, don't forget this one:

QUOTE (shadow.faq)

If a magician holds up his hand, or a piece of paper, or whatever, to block a target from his vision, does that mean they're not a "valid target" for an area effect spell? In SR3, do magicians who try to intentionally limit their area effect spells suffer some penalties or chance of spell misfire?
In FanPro's opinion, no GM should allow players to get away with this kind of stunt without penalty. A magician who plays these sorts of mind games with himself is asking for it--any attempt to thwart the intent of a spell simply causes it to fail outright, but the caster gets slammed with the Drain anyway.
If the GM wants to allow players to get away with tricks like this, then apply the cover modifier that the caster wishes to give the excluded target to the TN of the spell. If the caster wants to give the excluded target total cover (anything less and the spell affects them--except in the case of elemental manipulations), then the spell's TN increases by 8 (equivalent to blind fire, a +8 modifier). The magician could, of course, center against this penalty. If the caster wants to pull this stunt with multiple targets, the penalties stack unless the targets are very close together, in the GM's opinion. (Just imagine trying to block two specific people entirely out of your field of vision in a crowd.) If you want to be really cruel, apply the TN modifiers to the spell's Drain Test, too.

BitBasher View Member Profile	Apr 13 2005, 03:15 PM Post #16
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	My main worry about SR4 is that the people responsible for the FAQ are involved with it. That and a few dozen other things. :P

Edward

Apr 13 2005, 03:35 PM

Post #17

Neophyte Runner

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QUOTE (Demosthenes)

And if you want to get a bee in your bonnet about the area of effect combat spells, don't forget this one:

QUOTE (shadow.faq)

If a magician holds up his hand, or a piece of paper, or whatever, to block a target from his vision, does that mean they're not a "valid target" for an area effect spell? In SR3, do magicians who try to intentionally limit their area effect spells suffer some penalties or chance of spell misfire?
In FanPro's opinion, no GM should allow players to get away with this kind of stunt without penalty. A magician who plays these sorts of mind games with himself is asking for it--any attempt to thwart the intent of a spell simply causes it to fail outright, but the caster gets slammed with the Drain anyway.
If the GM wants to allow players to get away with tricks like this, then apply the cover modifier that the caster wishes to give the excluded target to the TN of the spell. If the caster wants to give the excluded target total cover (anything less and the spell affects them--except in the case of elemental manipulations), then the spell's TN increases by 8 (equivalent to blind fire, a +8 modifier). The magician could, of course, center against this penalty. If the caster wants to pull this stunt with multiple targets, the penalties stack unless the targets are very close together, in the GM's opinion. (Just imagine trying to block two specific people entirely out of your field of vision in a crowd.) If you want to be really cruel, apply the TN modifiers to the spell's Drain Test, too.

The fact that this can work at all confuses me. I never equated line of sight with actually looking at somebody.

As an example. I am surrounded by stupid thugs and need an edge so I cast stun ball centred 1 meeter in front of me. Although I am not looking at them if I merely swivelled my head all the enemies would be in line of sight, thus all are affected by eth spell (as the caster I am also affected by the spell but I cast at a low damage level relying on a high willpower stat to avoid damage myself. The stupid trogs however fall down.

This would mean that anything that is part of you (and remember this includes clothing armour and things you carry easily to judge by the rules for targeting enemies with full milspec and riot shields) would be unable to block LOS.

By the same token a caster that walked so a wall blocked his sight of his friends(and at least any enemies in direct melee with them) I se no reason to penalise his casting target number beyond any penalty for movement.

Edward

Frenzy View Member Profile	Apr 14 2005, 03:22 PM Post #18
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 11-January 05 From: Minneapolis, MN Member No.: 6,962	What about "Broken Arrow" spells? If I'm looking intently at the 2 guys rushing at me, there is a good chance that I cannot see any part of my own body. Can I call mana ball down on them, even though they are only 3ft away? If I cannot see myself then I cannot be harmed. Even if I cast mana ball directly on my own location?

GrinderTheTroll

Apr 14 2005, 04:22 PM

Post #19

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QUOTE

You can cast the same spell at multiple targets by increasing the TN for each additional target by +2 and making additional drain rolls for each time you cast. So drop a Stunbolt on Thug #1, and in the same phase hit Thug #2 @ +2 TN.

EDIT:
You can cast the same spell at multiple targets by increasing the TN for drain for each additional casting target and making additional drain rolls for each time you cast. So drop a Stunbolt on Thug #1, and in the same phase hit Thug #2.

See SR3.181.

GrinderTheTroll

Apr 14 2005, 04:37 PM

Post #20

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QUOTE (Edward)

QUOTE (Demosthenes @ Apr 13 2005, 10:54 PM)

And if you want to get a bee in your bonnet about the area of effect combat spells, don't forget this one:

QUOTE (shadow.faq)

If a magician holds up his hand, or a piece of paper, or whatever, to block a target from his vision, does that mean they're not a "valid target" for an area effect spell?

The fact that this can work at all confuses me. I never equated line of sight with actually looking at somebody.

As an example. I am surrounded by stupid thugs and need an edge so I cast stun ball centred 1 meeter in front of me. Although I am not looking at them if I merely swivelled my head all the enemies would be in line of sight, thus all are affected by eth spell (as the caster I am also affected by the spell but I cast at a low damage level relying on a high willpower stat to avoid damage myself. The stupid trogs however fall down.

We only allow targets that you can see when casting, so we choose a static moment to "pick" who will be effected. Since you do see part of yourself when casting technically you could be affected, but since the TN penalty is so high (at least +6), we usually skip the caster test unless they are looking in a mirror or something similar. Also, Trolls in SR3 replaced the penalty hit to Willpower with Intelligence which used to make Trolls easy of prey in pre-SR3 for Combat spells.

Also, you can cast the same spell (manabolt, stunbolt, lightining bolt) at multiple targets, adding +2 TN each additional target and making additional drain rolls.

QUOTE

This would mean that anything that is part of you (and remember this includes clothing armour and things you carry easily to judge by the rules for targeting enemies with full milspec and riot shields) would be unable to block LOS.

Appling visibility modifiers for determining TN makes people in the dark or taking cover harder to target. Although is seems silly to me given the nature of SR magic, it does help keep things somewhat balanced as far as TN goes.

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Apr 14 2005, 04:40 PM Post #21
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017	Wrong on the stacked casting. You split your sorcery (and any pools, foci or spirit aid you want to use) between the multiple targets, and roll against the normal TN. However, the drain for each such spell is rolled with a +2 for each extra spell. So a 6L stunbolt and a 6M manabolt would result in two drain tests at 4L and 5M.

GrinderTheTroll

Apr 14 2005, 04:51 PM

Post #22

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Wrong on the stacked casting. You split your sorcery (and any pools, foci or spirit aid you want to use) between the multiple targets, and roll against the normal TN. However, the drain for each such spell is rolled with a +2 for each extra spell. So a 6L stunbolt and a 6M manabolt would result in two drain tests at 4L and 5M.

Whoops, that's what I meant to say, hehe.

Thanks for the correction! (SR3.181)

nezumi

Apr 14 2005, 05:20 PM

Post #23

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QUOTE (Edward)

The fact that this can work at all confuses me. I never equated line of sight with actually looking at somebody.

That's the best explanation I've seen so far. After all, astral sense isn't based on your eyes, why should spellcasting? That means you can hit people around your peripheral vision and even people behind you (for your 'manaball self' spell). No 'I hold up a paper' silliness, but you still have problems casting through keyholes.

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