 Happy with SR4 changes, message to support SR4 developpers |
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 Apr 13 2005, 10:31 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 11-February 04 From: Paris, France Member No.: 6,074  |
I m a big fan of shadowrun since 1996 and i m very pleased with the idea of an all new edition and a new system for SR4 (new technology improvements that match the current SOTA, new game system, new way to handle deckers/riggers that is more "realistic" due to the arrival of the all wireless world) .
Although i personnally dont agree with all changes i have seen in the FAQ, it makes me very excited to see the complete work in august (please dont be late :) ) and despite the lots of complaints we can see on dumpshock (with some hardcore geek complaints about very minor changes like "its horrible to change the name deckers to hackers" and stuff like that : there will always be people who dont accept any changes to their favorite game, that s not a problem : they can stay in SR3!), i m sure i m not the only one that is pleased and confident in the SR4 developpers team to make a good game and major changes to the game system but keep what we really like : the shadowrun universe and background So this message is for the SR4 team to support them in continuing their difficult work and changes :notworthy: despite the lots of complaints they can see on Dumpshock PS i just have a question : why name the new derivated attribute of intelligence intuition and logic instead of perception and intelligence, that seems more simple and intuitive. |
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Apr 13 2005, 11:36 AM
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#2
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I would like to add my name to the support list. I choked on the 4:th FAQ but I´m allright now, and more excited than I´ve been since before the passing of the dice pools was annonced. One idea I really like has been voiced here on the board by Eyeless Blond: That you may withhold dice from a test in order to get some kind of advantage until your next action. You could for example withhold dice for extra defencive value, or extra dice on defencive tests if that is how it will work. This is what Eyeless said:
This is an incredible idea, in my view. And it would fit in nicely with what we have heard so far. Is it something you´ve had in mind? (speaking to developers) |
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Apr 13 2005, 01:35 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
I'm in the group of supporters as well :love: .
I'll admit my initial reaction was OH GOD! :eek: But unlike some others I have got over it. Every bit of information that get released calms my fears a little more. Myself and my group has the faith. In fact it can't get released quick enough as far as we're concered(subject to playtesting of course). :facelick: So far we're good. :smokin: |
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Apr 13 2005, 02:07 PM
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#4
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Heh, it's such an ego-boost to have other people actually agreeing with and bringing your ideas up in other threads; thanks mintcar!
At the moment, I'm a little leery of supporting anything about SR4. My problem though stems mostly from the way the information is coming to light, and the growing suspicion that nothing I say here is being taken seriously by anyone who actually has a say in anything about the new edition. I guess it's to be expected; most companies typically do everything they can to ignore their customers while pretending to listen to them--they want you to spend your money on them, but they want to work as little as possible to do so, a natural function of focusing on the bottom line--and I doubt that Fanpro is really any different in that regard. You'd think, though, that with the sheer volume of talent offering tiself here, for free, wanting nothing more than to help make the new version all that we could wish it to be, *someone* would have been listening to what we have to say. Because, honestly, Fanpro needs the help. There are a lot of creative people working for the company; as I've said elsewhere I have a lot of respect for the creative talent of the current writers and freelancers. From what I've seen in the SR3 "FAQ" rulings, I have serious misgivings about the company's ability with regards to statistics, analysis, or the other logical areas of expertise needed to make a fully coherent and consistent rules system. The choice, for instance, of basing everything on a static TN 5 system instead of a TN 4 system shows a disturbing lack of forethought as it narrows the range of reasonable Threshold numbers. For evidence, see the paper linked elsewhere on this subforum regarding the statistics of a static TN5 system, and the number of dice required to have an even chance at, say, a ThN of 6. I doubt the things in that paper ever occured to a single member of the SR4 dev team, which is disturbing because statistics and discrete probability is such a huge factor in balance and playability of a system. But none of this is going to be read by anyone who can make an actual decision regarding SR4, so what's the point? |
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Apr 13 2005, 02:41 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Great the AD&D fanboys are officially here. :please:
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Apr 13 2005, 03:07 PM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I read it. Do I win anything? What do I win? Tell me when I win! ;-) |
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Apr 13 2005, 03:07 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
Newb!... Hahaha! :grinbig:
I must say that the only thing that I havn't specifically liked about the noted updates so far is the change to deckers/riggers. But I don't specifically dislike it either as I can completely see the logic and game decisions behind it all. Especially if the tech level gets a big boost. My gaming group and I were talking about this the other night, basically I thought that in the future a vehicle would most likely be little more than a glorified computer on wheels; with systems such as Autonav, and many others, a car in the SR world would probably be a completely on-line machine. I mean even in today's world we have cars with built in computers, GPS tracking, Autonav, and many other on-line feature. So in the future of 2070 why wouldn't deckers and riggers pretty much be the same thing...if you can hack a database, you have hack a car... And so far I too think the mechanical changes are a great thing, but I am still a bit leary on how much more will change. Only time will tell...I guess I'm holding on to cautious optimism.
Well "Perception" has the very specific connotation of just "noticing details"; whereas "Intuition" can encompass all connotations of Perception and still have a wide enough definition to cover more things. And in truth a person's "Intelligence" is more than just simple logic and any given IQ test will have things that deal with creativity and other "non-cold-logic" aspects of a persons intelligence. So in SR it looks like the devide between Intuition and Logic is more of a distinction between the right and left half of the brain....maybe. Which for game terms is good enough... |
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Apr 13 2005, 03:08 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
A free trip to Glow City!! :P |
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Apr 13 2005, 03:26 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Considering that the playtesters and developers that do visit dumpshock have repeatedly said there are still quite a number of rules that are in flux I do feel that it's still possible for the general fan community to have some impact on design choices.
For example if someone posts an interesting mechanic or concept in these forums Adam or DE or Patrick or Synner might go "Wow that's really cool and innovative" and pass it up to Rob who might go "Damn I wish I had thought of it and change the mechanics accordingly." Basically until we hear that they are working on layout and production I figure there is still a chance (however small) that our input might still have an effect on the end product. |
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Apr 13 2005, 03:51 PM
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#10
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Yes, but do you count as someone who can change anything? If not, then everything we're posting here is pretty much an exercise in futility. For instance, among the many discussions here it was mentioned how completely stupid the current "SR4 FAQ" is. It doesn't serve to attract new players because all it does is reference what has changed, which doesn't matter to new players. It doesn't serve to inform existing players of what the new system will be like at all, because there are no actual rules mentioned in the posts. All we get are cryptic references to new in-game vocabulary terms that will be seen in the new rules, which only serve to cause endless confusion and debate, with people trying to dissect the vocabulary words that will be in the new book and reverse-engineer those into what the rules will be, a process that will invariably be wrong but will still cause engless, pointless arguments and confusion. Noone who actually wants to market a book would post up the kind of crap that the "SR4 FAQ" is. It would be far more productive, interesting to the readers, and better marketing in general to write something like Monte Cook's Design Diaries, which zero in in a specific aspect of the rules and explain it in detail, including the motivations and design considerations that lead up to that decision/set of rules. A design diary entry like that would help people understand the motications and considerations that the dev team put into the rules, and at the very least alleviate the fear some of us have that they simply spread out other PRG books on the floor and threw darts at them, picking whatever mechanics the darts landed on and calling it Shadowrun. :P Now, do I expect this to change anything with Fanpro? Of course not. This has been brought up a number of times before and nothing's changed, and I expect nothing to change now. I contend that you, Adam, and indeed anyone who actually reads this post are in fact either powerless to do anything meaningful, or, if not, than be either too lazy or too uncaring to actually change things for the better. And, at the same time, all the suggestions on this board will continue to become more and more disjointed and unrelated to the actual system, because the "FAQs" as presented so far don't actually tell us a damn thing except that you've thrown all the old mechanics out the window. |
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Apr 13 2005, 04:06 PM
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#11
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
I actually support this whole shooting match. New editions generate revenue for the company. It's a chance to shake loose the cobwebs of older editions and reach out to a new generation of players that were turned off by the seemingly overly complex rules.
What I'd love to see is a general format followed for the main book and all the splat books afterwards. such as a Table of contect at the beginning, a comprehensive Index for material in the book (not for references to other books) at the end, a reprinting of all tables in various indices. Also, I'd like to see some guidelines on the artwork. i've said it before, but if a piece of gear can't exist by game mechanics, I don't want to see it in an official piece of artwork (artist license is important, but when it causes arguements on gear or vehicles, it's counter productive) all in all, I'm looking forward to the final product, and if you guys need another group of playtesters, I have a batch of folks willing and able to sign NDA's and be held to them for this. |
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Apr 13 2005, 04:10 PM
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#12
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
They would, if there weren't intellectual ownership and copyright issues. |
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Apr 13 2005, 04:19 PM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
In some cases, yes. I am contributing to SR4 development, and I'm paying close attention here, as I have been since, well, before Dumpshock was Dumpshock.
We're certainly going to be more in-depth stuff in the future about specific mechanics and world situations. There are specific reasons why we're doing the early FAQ entries in the current style, and for those purposes, we're quite happy with it.
Or we simply don't agree on the "right" way to be doing things. The FAQ solution right now is not perfect, but it's generating some great discussion. Also, it's certainly not the only advertising or promotion for SR4 that we'll be doing, as we'll be doing ads in all the major trade magazines, the Origins/GenCon booklet, etc. This is still the early stages of a longer plan. |
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Apr 13 2005, 04:26 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
The developers and playtesters are obviously going to make the system the best that they can. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume that they succeed.
That isn't to say that SR4 won't have bugs; every system has them. It'll probably have at least as many as a "SR3 revised" edition would. But that shouldn't stop the system from being good. I now go back to my normal, pessimistic self |
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Apr 13 2005, 04:36 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
I'm pretty certain that within US copyright rules and likely the Berne convention that game mechanics themselves cannot be copyrighted. Thus it's perfectly acceptable for other companies to borrow something like Exalted's stunt mechanics and adapt it for thier system (in fact it's been done). Thus whenever some designs houserules for a game on the internet they really can't sue if someone else borrows portions of those rules for thier game. What can be copyrighted is the fluffy crap that we surround the base mechanics in but otherwise it would be perfectly acceptable for WotC to say they have the copyright on the mechanic that using a d20 vs a variable TN. This patently is not the case regardless of whether or not you include the OGL. |
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Apr 13 2005, 05:13 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
to get people up and screaming about it, so everybody's paying attention to it. much the same reason i put spiders in my brother's bed! |
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Apr 13 2005, 06:16 PM
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#17
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Slacker Extraordinaire Group: Retired Admins Posts: 337 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ashburn, VA Member No.: 997 |
wow... the voice your support thread became... every other thread in this forum ...in less than half a page. Nice!
I'll voice my support in favor of the intent of the new rules, I'm optimistic about the overall game and hopeful about a game where deckers and riggers become useful participants in fast paced, gritty, action under consistent rules. I'm uncertain about some of what has been posted to date in regard to the new rules, but hope to find my concerns unfounded as more information is released. |
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Apr 13 2005, 06:25 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UCAS Member No.: 1,015 |
This is just a theory, but I think they're operating under the (perfectly reasonable) assumption that the more detail they go into now the more current fans they'll lose due to the vocal, overblown hysterics of a few. No matter what they do some segment of the SR3 audience will hate SR4 (or at least rabidly claim to until it's released, the crazy geeks). So keeping hard info down to a slow drip is a good way to try to get people to wait for the final rules before they judge SR4 instead of buying into premature hater dissections. Three months before press and this is all they have finalized? I doubt it. |
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Apr 13 2005, 06:33 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
It seems that while at least some of the people doing damage control would love to go into greater detail about mechanics there are still a pretty decent amount of things that remain in flux. Posting changes that might or might not be implemented is not a great idea as it would confuse people more than they already are.
In general though it sounds like all the playtesters that post here are quite happy with the design choices made and think that it's a significant improvement over SR3 gameplay. Considering that to date these people seem intelligent, well-spoken and genuinely concerned about the game I tend to think that the changes being made do indicate a superior game design. While internet folk and game forum posters in particular seem to be highly reactionary easily upset people I tend to think maybe placing a little bit of trust in the design team might be a smart idea. |
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Apr 13 2005, 06:44 PM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Haven't you heard? It's illegal to do anything but complain online. Now, Friend Computer has dispatched Happy Fun Teams to bring you to reeducation facility nine. Cooperate and you'll be a happy citizen in no time. ~J |
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Apr 13 2005, 07:32 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Are 'Happy fun teams' anything like Team Joy from Feng Shui? Those guy are really dastardly.
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Apr 13 2005, 07:37 PM
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#22
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Alert! Communist! Requesting paperwork to begin paperwork to request authorization papwerwork to learn about any potential security teams that may or may not be disatched tso that if there are any said security teams I can begin the paperwork to inform them of where the perpetrator went.
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Apr 13 2005, 11:35 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
The fun thing is, you have to say things like that in paranoia; esp. if it turns into a player killfest.
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Apr 14 2005, 12:26 AM
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#24
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
And, for the most part, I have no problem with this (save for my current misgivings about certain Fanpro writer's ability to write good/self-consistent game mechanics). What is bothering me is that every day I'm finding myself less and less interested in SR4 and everything related to it, largely because the stuff that's being fed to us amounts to little more than vocabulary terms. If we had specific bits of mechanics, or at least something describing the considerations being addressed *behind* the mechanics, if the mechanics themselves haven't been finalized, it would be far more interesting than just throwing one-liners at us. |
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Apr 14 2005, 01:02 AM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Typo corrected. 8) |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 19th April 2024 - 09:45 AM |
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