Shadowrun 3rd Revised, our backs turned, looking down the path Options

[Eyeless Blond]

Well obviously *I* thought it was a neat idea. :)

Um, yes, it would definately require lots of rebalancing of the decking and rigging prices to work. Actually it would affect the decking rules more than the rigging rles; riggers would be in the same boat they're in now, but deckers would have a higher required price in Essence and cyberware to work.

In the end both areas you just brought up are debates over rules mastery, as I mentioned in that thread. I don't often look favorably at d20 in anything, but there's one thing I like about the system: whenever you're looking at a completely new section of the rules, you can always rely on the fact that what you know from previously mastered sections will not be completely contradicted. That sort of tightness, interconnectiveness, robustness is something I think we can stribe for here with SR3R, and it may well be worth a slightly deeper delving into the rules than we're currently thinking about.

[Kagetenshi]

The problem with Riggers is that as stated, unless you alter the Essence costs of a VCR-3, it becomes unfeasible to build a Rigger with the capabilities of a current VCR-3 Rigger. It also makes someone with a VCR-1 and rating 3 Encephalon an extremely dangerous, if more limited, fighting force. The fact that the Control Pool increase would come now from the Encephalon rubs me the wrong way too.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

[Kagetenshi]

The Control Pool increase is an indirect increase that is the result of the Reaction increase. As such, it would now be provided by the Encephalon.

That said, I missed your cost reorganization for the VCR. That changes things.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

Ah. Hm, I didn't even think about that. But then cyber boosts to Reaction don't add to pool dice, do they? It's like someone with muscle replacement getting a boost on combat pool or Reaction because their quickness was artificially enhanced; I thought that was specifically excluded?

[Kagetenshi]

The Control Pool by definition is equal to the user's VCR-modified Reaction (with no other source contributing save clearly-defined exceptions such as Structural Agility).

~J

[Deamon_Knight]

Idea on open tests

I was thinking it depends on what you decide you want to model with these test. I can't post a probability list like some, but open tests do seem to run the gamut of probable results. To produce more normalized results, consider making this change to open tests.

A: Eliminate the Rule of 6 for open tests.
B: Roll a number of dice equal to your skill rating and take the highest result. (as normal)
C: Add the highest die result to your skill rating for the result.

Example: Sly Cat has Stealth 5, and wants to hide in a dark ally from the gangers chasing him. He rolls an open test for stealth, rolling 5 dice he gets a 01, 01, 03, 04, and a 05. The 5 is the highest die result, so he adds that 5 to his skill rating in Stealth (also a 5) for a result of 10. the TN then for the gangers to spot him is 10.

If your problem with Open Tests is the many rules in one book problem, this really doesn't help though.

[Kagetenshi]

Well, it's exactly that gamut-run of results that I like about them—when it gets right down to it, trying to sneak past someone in my opinion should be a crap-shoot (though it's less of one than people frequently accuse it of being).

~J

[Deamon_Knight]

Just putting the idea out there :)

[pragma]

Open Tests:

I find that open tests, especially stealth, are often panned (at least in the circles I run in) because modifiers are inappropriately applied. The only time a guard will be using only your stealth roll as a target number should be when you are sneaking across a lit area with no cover (it should, without a doubt, be a crapshoot at best in that case).

If you are crawling through tall grass at night with appropriate camoflauge you have picked up a +10 or so modifier to the test, making it a much more sane proposition in my mind.

While it is frustrating to be playing a stealth 12 adept that just can't seem to roll higher than a 5, I think the basic mechanic is solid.

Eyeless Initiative

I like it though Kage points out some significant balance issues. Consider chaning control pool to straight reaction + 2 * VCR rating?

[Kagetenshi]

[hahnsoo]

All that Open tests are used for (AFAIK, at least in the Stealth example, which is the thing that causes the most problems) is determining a unopposed target number. So why not use the d6 vs. TN mechanic for that? In my mind, I can see a "roll Stealth vs. TN 4 (injury mods apply), successes add a +'s modifier to a base TN 4, with other modifiers based on camo, Stealth Suits, etc."

I think my problem with Open tests is that it "feels" like my Skill is meaningless. The feel of the standard SR mechanic makes it such that you "feel" like your skill is actively contributing to the situation at hand. Open tests are crap-shoots for 6s, and feel like your skill roll is actually a "press your luck" roll instead. I'm not saying this is remotely accurate in terms of probability (which still scale linearly, if a bit haphazard in the spread), but that's the "feel" of the Open test.

[Kagetenshi]

Open tests are also used in determining jump distance for "just jumping as far as you can", but the jumping rules are the result of a team of crack-smoking monkeys anyway so they're getting revised regardless of the larger fate of open tests.

~J

[Taran]

[Kagetenshi]

………Blake was the guy with the staff, wasn't he?

*Goes and gathers up all the bug spray in the house*

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

Test mechanics fall into three categories currently (as SR3 raw). (unless I forgot one or five)

1: base TN with mods. These represent working against the environmental challenges.
2: opposed. These represent direct conflicts, but do often overpower the difference in relavant skills/attributes/subsystems.
3: open. This is the situation where a realistic model has too many subtle variables that could be the difference between glorious success and miserable failure. Therefore, the open test is used when tiny details that the GM shouldn't be expected to plan out beforehand can make or break an effort. Most notably is the unsuspected shadow with numerous dry twigs hidden in it, even the sneaky expert can miss something.

The only one of those I'd consider changing is the opposed test, and I'd only change that the opponent's TN and the number of dice rolled must be determined by different stats. So opposed negotiations vs. willpowers is perfectly fine, but sensors vs. ECM needs to bring in some other stats to keep one at a high rating from completely overpowering the other.

Oh, and I always house-ruled that distance jumping tests were added to a base amount based on quickness and with each level of Great Leap adding a meter as well as a die.

[mmu1]

[hahnsoo]

[Taran]

I know. A character with stealth 6 expects to produce a TN of 7 for a watcher (3 successes, 4 + 3 = 7). If said watcher is as good at looking as the stealth character is at sneaking, he expects one success. The (arguable) problem is that a character with stealth 6 and a Light wound expects to do as well as a character with stealth 4; with a Medium wound, as well as a character with stealth 1. Similarly, a +4 lighting mod causes a character with stealth 4 to perform about as well as a character with stealth 12. A lightly wounded watcher is much worse at watching. For a guy in +12 ruthenium, the stealth skill is almost meaningless.

Note: I know that expectations are somewhat misleading, as variance is very important for a task as touchy as sneaking is.

[hahnsoo]

[Eyeless Blond]

[pragma]

Another idea on a mildly related tangent. It would be interesting to split reaction so that only intelligence mattered for mental initiative and only quickness for physical. Though that would be changing the system quite a bit (however it would cut down on genius samurai).

[Shockwave_IIc]

[Taran]

[Juggernaut125]

Has the SR3R been forgotten, postponed or abandoned for the new SR4? I enjoyed the sharing of theories and opinions that were presented thus far on the 3rd edition. There are still plenty of topics to discuss (Spellcasting vs. Ritual Sorcery, Physical Adept powers that mimic Cybernetic abilities, Rigging in general, gear, etc.)