Shadowrun 3rd Revised, our backs turned, looking down the path Options

[Veracusse]

Also is the website http://sr3r.net/ still going to be used for its intended purpose?

[Kagetenshi]

Postponed until my horribly late psych paper gets finished.

Site still going to be used, etc.

~J

[Platinum]

Hey K, are you going to resurrect this beast and possibly post the new decking rules?

[Kagetenshi]

Yep, more info after I sleep.

~J

[Platinum]

You awake yet??.... blink blink

[Kagetenshi]

Awake. Collecting.

~J

[Kagetenshi]

Taking longer than anticipated to create clean layout, plus I'm slow. Being worked on.

~J

[Platinum]

[Kagetenshi]

Operational utility list and operation list up. More later.

~J

[Kagetenshi]

Proposed revised Initiatory-group-joining rules:

The candidate rolls Magic or highest Magical skill against a TN equal to 4, plus the size of the group divided by 10 (round down), plus 1 for every point of magic the candidate has lost, minus 1 for every Initiate grade the candidate already possesses.

The initiatory group may spend Karma Pool on the behalf of the candidate. This expenditure costs what it would cost if the candidate made the expenditure (for example, if the candidate makes one reroll, it would cost two karma pool for the initiatory group to provide the second reroll) and is subject to a chance of Cursed Karma if the candidate or any member of the initiatory group possesses that flaw. The cost is applied to every member of the initiatory group—as a result, it is extremely rare.

Alternate TN-scaling system appropriate for preventing large groups: as above, but the TN increases by the size of the group divided by five (round down).

Alternate TN-scaling system 3: as above, but the TN increases in a triangular progression (+1 at 10 members, +1 +2 at 20 members, +1 +2 +3 at 30 members, so on and so forth).

Alternate TN-scaling system 4: As above, but the TN increases by one for every multiple of the current highest initiate grade present within the group.

Alternate TN-scaling system 5: As System 4, but each group is determined to be either a Communal Paradise or a Personality Cult. If the group is a Personality Cult (overwhelmingly the most common group type), the TN is based on the multiple of the initiate grade of the group leader (usually, but not always, the person with the highest initiate grade). If the group is a Communal Paradise, the TN is based on the average (rounded down) of the initiate grades of all members.

Alternate TN-scaling system 6: as above, but the TN increases by one for every multiple of the Group Size Factor. The GSF is determined by taking the highest Initiate Grade, dividing it by two (round down), then adding together the grades of the highest-graded individuals up to that number and dividing by two (again, round down).

In systems 4, 5, and 6, magical groups may not admit new members without an initiate present in the group. Alternately, the TN may be determined as if members had an initiate grade of 1, with an additional +4 added.

Any opinions on which system looks best, or an alternate suggestion?



Proposed Hooper-Nelson rule alteration: the limitations on when the H-N rule may be applied are eliminated. While the ability to reduce a TN of 6 to 5 (for example) is powerful, it pales in comparison to another karma pool die.

Thoughts?

~J

[Platinum]

please forgive my ignorance, I have only played sr2. Why would it be harder to join or initiate in a large group? You have more people to talk with and learn from.

[Kagetenshi]

A few reasons. I'll start with the weakest one, the others are in no particular order:

1) That's how SR3 does it. For reference, current canon is that the TN is equal to the number of members the group currently has.

2) Game balance. Larger groups will inherently have more resources per amount of dues paid by individual members.

3) "Magical groups usually come into being to accomplish specific goals." The point of the entry test is determining whether or not the candidate's purpose harmonizes with that of the group and that of the other members. In light of this the original punishing TN makes a great deal of sense—the more people you have, the less likely you're going to get them to agree.

Initiating does not increase in difficulty, only joining the group.

~J

[Platinum]

if that is the case then I would say increase the TN by members of the group /5.
+2 tn for not being initiated. Should either be a magical theory or etiquette magic roll. default ch +2

[Chance359]

*judo chop*
First I want to say that I think that this project is a very worthwhile. After having gone back and read most of the pages of the various SR3R thread I've got a few thoughts:

Cyberware prices:
Chipjack: 0.2 500 nuyen
Cyberears (replacement): 0.3 1,000
Cybereyes (replacement): 0.2 500
Datajack: 0.2 500
Subvocal Microphone: 0.1 400
Telephone: 0.2 500
Headware Radio: 0.4 Rating x 500 nuyen
Cyberlimbs: use 4th edition costs?
Cyberlimb enhancements: same essence cost, 10% of listed nuyen costs
Biomoniter: 0.2 750 nuyen

(I also like the idea of grades of cyber ears and eyes introduced in SR4)

Boosted Reflexes: This would make users similar to Juicers from rifts

Change to make it a chemical treatment that has to be maintained. The essence cost would come from the chemicals, auto injectors to supply the drugs, and the resevoirs built into the body to hold the drugs.

This basically changes it from a one time treatment into a set of body compartments with auto injectors, with a supply of drugs.

Keep the same benefits and restrictions on not compatible with wired reflexes and vehicle control rigs.

Level 1 would cost 0.4 5,200 nuyen to install and 200 a month
Level 2 would cost 0.8 10,500 nuyen to install and 500 a month
level 3 would cost 1.2 16,000 nuyen to install and 1,000 per month

If the user misses an appointment to pickup new chemical inserts, reduce their boosted reflexes rating by 1 per month. I'm still working on a way to keep someone from getting level 1 and buying the level 3 drugs and overloading themselves.

[Chance359]

Kage, maybe cyberware revisions need their own thread?

[Kagetenshi]

They do indeed. I haven't opened it yet because to keep focus tight I'm waiting to finish off some of the current threads before I open any more—among other things, cyberware revisions (and most other gear) needs to wait until the affected ruleset is fully revised. Not that I find it at all likely, but if for some reason we were to suddenly declare that all Elves get… I don't know, automatic slow regeneration (*cough cough*), we'd need to know that before we started tweaking cyberware to make it balance out.

~J

[Grinder]

Haven't read the whole thread: will you put all together in a PDF? The revised rules, I mean.

[Kagetenshi]

To the degree that I can. Worst-case scenario I'll provide a tool for ripping the text out of the SR3 PDFs plus a diff of the SR3R rules and the original text.

~J

[Catsnightmare]

I guess this means I better get off my hoop and finish typing up those revised Rigger/driving rules I promised. :)

[Wounded Ronin]

This is very exciting.

[Chance359]

A few pages back Kage mentioned a contact revison (about 2/3 of the way down, Jul 14 2005, 10:26 PM). Personally I like what SR4 has done with giving contacts both a Connection and Loyalty rating. For SR3R I propose using a similar system, but when you choose a contact you have to purchase the points for them

Connection:
1-3 500¥ per point
4-6 1,000¥ per point
7+ 5,000¥ per point

Loyalty:
1-3 500¥ per point
4-6 1,000¥ per point
7+ 5,000¥ per point

Example:
I want to buy a Fixer contact at character creation. I need this fixer to both connected and loyal so I splurge and give her Connection: 5 (5,000¥), and Loyalty: 5 (5,000¥).

This however do not cover all of the aspects that Kage's proposed changes do.

Also, why is it that the speed at which the muscles of my body are capable of moving at have anything to do with the how quickly I can react when my mind is removed from my body? As it stands right now when a mage projects the speed at which their physical body moves has nothing to do with how quickly their astral body moves.

I wouldnt mind seeing Reaction in a vehicle or in the Matrix be based directly off the characters Intelligence attribute. It really won't make much of a difference since a large majority of Riggers and Deckers have both high Quickness and Intiligence, but it would make a bit more sense.

[Taran]

Riggers are already nearly one-stat characters. As it stands, you can very nearly have a viable rigger with 1/6/1/1/6/1, and from a game balance perspective I'm uncomfortable with removing Quickness from that equation. I'm less worried about abusive Decker builds, since most deckers moonlight as mages or sams or what-have-you anyway. But riggers...I guess it's a mercy that there's only one Int-boosting piece of 'ware, and that it's cultured and thus out of most peoples' reach at character creation. Even so, this scares me a lot.

But, goddammit, from a realism perspective you're totally right. I wrote several paragraphs about how Quickness actually models mental quickness as well as physical quickness, but no, that's Reaction. That Quickness adds to virtual Reaction just makes no sense and never has, and the analogy to astral space is telling. That would let us get rid of all the clumsy exceptional language on quickness-boosting cyberware, which all has special-case rules about how it doesn't apply to virtual Reaction.

The contact thing: I like it. It collapses three of Kagetenshi's axes into one, but it requires much less GM input at character creation. It totally ignores GunnerJ's offering, but that would have required us to do work to invent all the necessary Cliches.

Edited for premature submission.

[Kagetenshi]

I do think we need to get rid of the special-case-language on Quickness-boosting 'Ware, regardless of whether or not we drop Quickness as part of Rigged/Decked Reaction.

As for the contact thing, I think it's interesting enough to look into further, but I'm uncomfortable moving that far back in terms of granularity. Then again, I fully admit that to make SR into the system I really want would require all players to carry computers to the game at all times.

~J

[mmu1]

[Kagetenshi]

Astral Reaction is already just Intelligence (or the average of Intelligence and Astral Quickness, which is equal to Intelligence, whichever you'd prefer ;) ).

~J