Shadowrun 3rd Revised, our backs turned, looking down the path Options

[Sir_Psycho]

So, i sincerely doubt we'll be able to change it, and I care little either way, but I think it should be brought up for SR3R.

The target numbers of 6 and 7 are the same target number.

Any suggestions for a solution short of changing to the hit system or doing away with the rule of 6 (if that was even possible)?

[Dawnshadow]

Reroll 6's, adding 5 instead.

[nezumi]

Wow, that's a very elegant solution!

I'm going through this thread and tabulating everything into a single document, but in case it comes to naught, I think we also need to better define astral perception. Is it a psychic sense or just a visual overlay? Either way, the modifiers should reflect that.

[SL James]

Well, it's not just visual.

[Sphynx]

Re-Rolling 6's and adding 5 is probably the best 'solution', however I think most players will agree that it's not a problem needing solving. No game balance or other issues has ever arisen from having a TN of 7 and rolling a 6 being a success. It's just uncomfortable for some people, but isn't an issue really....

And as SL James said, it's not -just- visual. Visual is part of it though. Just like your non-astral perception test may not be -just- visual...

[nezumi]

The point is, should it be visual at all?

[Sphynx]

Why is that the point? Why shouldn't it be visual?

[blakkie]

[nezumi]

Because it's a psychic sense, not an optical one.

The problem is basically that we use the metaphor of visual sight to explain it, which is fine to begin with. However there are points when the metaphor is used in place of the reality, and it becomes unnecessarily confusing. For instance, why does astral perception see through glass? The answer is because our normal vision can see through glass. It's a misapplication of the metaphor.

[Sphynx]

I disagree. The reason Astral Perception can see through glass is because the Astral is mostly manipulated by 'intent'. A window is placed in a location to allow one to see through. The intent and purpose of that window is to provide sensory throughput. It has only enough to do with visual in that visual is the intended sensory.

I don't see a need to seperate them, since it's your brain that's translating the input, and telling you that you're "seeing" something due to a lack of a better way to translate it to you.

[nezumi]

So if I intend for a wall to be red, it'll be red on the astral, and if I put up a sign saying "no spitting on the dwarves", you'll understand the intent of the sign? Or if I intend to put up a window, but haven't gotten to it yet, you can still see through where it would be?

At best, glass that was put up by someone who REALLY REALLY wanted to be able to see through it should give the sense of 'someone put up something here with the intent of allowing people to see through it'. The astral shows the intent of conscious beings, it does not manifest that intent.

[Moon-Hawk]

If someone has a hole in their wall and they put up a piece of glass to plug it up, does it show up as opaque, since it was intended to be a barrier, and the visible transparency of glass is incidental?

[Sphynx]

Re-read about the Astral. Although I realize you're simply attempting to be facisious, I will reply to each comment.

Putting up a red wall has no effect on 'color' in the Astral plane. The 'intent' is based on what the general person (not the implementor or viewer) understands that intent to be. The only 'intent' of a red wall, is that there is an intended barrier in the way.

If you intend to put up a window, there is nothing for the general person to understand from 'intent'. Again, not the implementor or viewer responsible for effect here.

If you use see-thru glass to plug up a hole, your intent is not going to over-ride the general populace definition of 'intent'. However, by my understanding of the Astral, the window would be slightly less opaque (tinted?) than a window glass-piece, purely because there actually is 'intent' of some nature.

[nezumi]

I really am not trying to be facetious.

Alright, I'm opening up the book to the astral section. So far I see no mention of "intent" anywhere. The most relevant bit is:

"Non-magical objects have no auras, but pick up impressions from being in contact with living auras. Assessing can "read" any impressions left behind on an object."

(here's intent, under astral senses):

"Abstract information is more difficult to perceive there. Written information and symbols carry their emotional intent rather than their informational intent. Blah blah, you could scan a sheet of paper... and get feelings of love and longing from it, but you can't read it to see that it's a love letter."

Glancing through, I don't see where it mentions glass is transparent on the astral, but we both know that that is the rule.

In summary though, you see the emotional intent people leave on objects. So if I really really wanted a window to be transparent, you could get that. That doesn't mean it would be transparent any more than if I really really wanted a love letter to be transparent. Non-magical objects have no aura of their own, and so the window, by virtue of being glass, does not have an 'intention to be transparent' aura that allows you to see through it.

If you have a quote to support your stance, I really would appreciate seeing it, because it could clear up a point of contention I've had for a very long time.

(An addendum, part of the confusion I'm sure stems from:

p.173

"Your astral form has normal human sense of sight...
Written information carry their emotional intent rather than their informational intent. For example... but you can't read a street sign and know what street you're on."

The problem is that clearly you do NOT have the human sense of sight if you can't do things like read. The passage is completely fubared. Either you have the human sense of sight and can see through glass, read signs, etc. or you do not. You have the astral perception to read emotional intent, "see" life, etc. or you do not. However human sight does not read emotional intent, and astral perception cannot read, so clearly the two are separate senses and should be treated as such.)

[SL James]

[Kagetenshi]

Searching MitS and SR3 for the word "glass" fails to come up with any support for the idea that it is transparent on the astral. I don't have time right now to look more closely.

~J

[Moon-Hawk]

Just the old SR3 FAQ
Should be the second occurance of the word "glass". But I'm guessing everybody already knew about that.

[Fortune]

The SR3 FAQ was specific in stating that glass is clear (see-through) to Astral Perceiving/Projecting characters. Incidently, in SR4, glass is now considered opaque in that situation.

[nezumi]

The best I can find is SR3, page 182.

"Transparent obstructions, such as glass, have no effect on most spells (see below). Because it is transparent, the spellcaster can see the target and affect it." (It doesn't specify 'while on the physical', although two paragraphs before is talking about that.

[SL James]

It seems to refer just to sorcery on the physical plane, but I grudgingly accept the FAQ idea of it being transparent on the astral.

It's just one of those things I figure doesn't need too much thought put into it, like how metahumans who have thermographic (which I treat as IR) vision can see through glass without impediment.

[Dawnshadow]

[nezumi]

[Dawnshadow]

Stealth is different. You can make them make rolls for it -- because other then something as pervaisive as the Arcology, who lets the mage know that sort of thing without a roll? Just make them roll astral perception, just like any other perception test. If they can't physically see the person, they can't tell the position through astral perception. But they might be able to know they are there, by the emotional cues.

And again, this is entirely astral perception. Unless you're blind and deaf, you still have your senses of sight and hearing while astrally perceiving. So you should be able to read the street sign, or hear the conversation.

If you're astrally projecting, on the other hand, then you don't have physical senses. You have only the astral perception. Your brain might parse it into rough sense analogies, but you aren't using them. You can't read the sign because you can't see it. You can't hear the conversation because you don't have ears. You might be able to tell a great deal from emotions and so on, but you can't hear them say "Joe, you wait there with the shotgun, Jimmy, be ready with the flamethrower" -- you just sense "Plan." Possibly on a really, really good roll, 'ambush plan'.

[nezumi]

[SL James]