Shadowrun 3rd Revised, our backs turned, looking down the path Options

[Link]

If there is to be a spell revision for SR3R methinks it'd be good if it were organised or systematic, like the lists for matrix and the astral. Perhaps a list of assembled spells with their issues spelt :) out so they may be resolved.
Even the innocuous Gecko Crawl spell which has been noted in SR3R before has polarised opinion here ;)

[Sphynx]

Agreed, maybe an entire thread dedicated to just spells.

[Kagetenshi]

I'm planning on creating that thread after work today. Until then, we have this thread :)

(My thinking is "Spells, Sorcery, Spell Defense, and the Spell Pool". Anyone have an opinion of that scope?)

~J

[Link]

"Comprehensive yet focused" ;)

[nezumi]

Sphynx, the problem is you're pitting your mage toe to toe with a street sam, which should never be the case unless he walks in while you're using the john. A mage has UNLIMITED RANGE on his spells, and can summon up an elemental which is COMPLETELY INVULNERABLE to those pesky guns. I would say that those right there basically sends the sam packing. That's assuming you don't just cast control actions on him (and with your pool, you're basically guaranteed to win. His armor does nothing, he can't dodge, the only way to beat it is a lucky roll or spotting you from where ever you are before you cast).

So sam vs. mage, the mage has:
Combat pool to dodge and to soak
His own gun and combat skills
Armor
Body
spells (as appropriate)

The sam has:
Speed
A high willpower (hopefully)

That seems pretty unbalanced.

Combat spells are certainly not the problem. Take away combat spells and you still have a dozen other 'sam killer' spells. Control thoughts, barrier, armor and so on. The problem is spell defense. Mages have it and non-mages don't.

BTW, security systems do not beat improved invis of even force 1. As stated, 1 success is enough to beat any cameras. Security systems only win when they use other detection methods like IR lasers and radar.

[Sphynx]

Actually, the problem if I have one, is that I'm not pitting them against each other, since the Sam always wins initiative if we do that.

Elementals that are completely invulnerable. Total agreeance. For years we've house ruled the opposite, you can blow elementals away with a gun in our games (they only have basic level armour if anything)

The problem isn't the mage. It's the fact that most mages are also falling under the Sam category with the BMFGuns, Smartlinks, Armour, etc. Are mages more powerful? No, I don't think so. Their spells aren't doing more damage than that burstfire 10S is, and unless you min-max your mage purely for combat, you are taking drain (unless you treat the Trauma Dampener as a drain-assistant). The Sam isn't. You are taking drain/damage when you throw that Area effect spell (unless it's stun maybe), the sam suffers nothing when throwing that Frag Grenade. The mage has EXCELLENT range, the Samurai has EXCELLENT hand-to-hand. Sure, if you're beyond 300 meters, the Mage may have the upper hand. If you're within 2 meters, the Samurai will pwn. The same samurai who had the excess points to buy up super speed, ruthenium suits, and stealth skills while the mage is struggling to afford a half-decent stealth skill and is worried about the enemy astral side of things as well as the physical assaults.

I'm sorry Nezumi, but there's not any inbalance here. Everyone has their good/bad areas/points. And of -course- the Mage has more options, that's what he gets for putting 25 to 30 points into having magic as an option instead of being bigger/badder in the bod.

Now, that being said. I do think Mages are way better. I would never play anything else, we get options. I can fly invisibly with an armour spell through the night and with enough time/money, have as much cyber as any Sam could ever get. But that's not an inbalance, that's a payoff. You sacrifice in the beginning to receive more in the end. Spells rock as long as they're not being resisted.

But I know for a fact, anytime I've pit myself against a Sam, I've fled with tail between the legs in any form of combat unless I completely owned him via surprise; because almost every single time the Sam has a WP of 6 and B of 6 and I won't do the cheese decreased Charisma from range type spell.

[Sphynx]

[Kagetenshi]

[Sphynx]

It's only 90% that way. My phrase stated they absolutely resist regardless of any rolls, doing something they would normally never ever do (like shoot self).

Personally, I agree, the drain is too high, I never ever take that spell, and I always play a manipulation style mage. But if that's one of the spells that has everyone thinking magic is too unbalanced, I'm all for weakening it by somethng more than Drain.

[Kagetenshi]

Oh. Then I disagree--what's the point? It becomes "sorta control thoughts" or "maybe suggest something they weren't completely against anyway"? SR3R has forbidden the book, but a Social Adept by canon and using SotA:64 and some edges can, IIRC, get a Hostile person to do something disastrous (the word used in the modifier table) for themselves just by talking to them.

I mean, we might need to do something to it so that it isn't so easy to mindrape an average Joe, but amongst Shadowrunners and opposition that's no more than moderately inferior, I'd call it just fine to slightly underpowered.

~J

[Sphynx]

I agree with you Kage. But the objective of this thread of conversation isn't to ask if Control Actions/Thoughts should control actions/thoughts, but rather to ask, if such spells are unbalancing from the viewpoint of a non-mage (it was a mage vs sam comparrison) how to 'balance' it.

However, I do not find them unbalancing. They're actually annoying enough as a caster that I don't even want the spells. That's balanced enough for me.

[Kagetenshi]

No, actually, the objective of this thread is to determine whether or not it needs to be changed :) balance is only one of many factors that will determine that, and "making things make sense" is a very high priority for me.

Edit: I'm not sure if I missed "of the conversation" or you ninja-edited me, but either way, the Whole Package™ is very important to me.

~J

[Sphynx]

You missed the "of the conversation" ;) However, no biggie.

So, putting Control Anything aside, the only flaws in the magic system seem to be that it exists and non-magi have no defense other than base attributes, despite the seeming fact that, that lack of defense does not win a mage combat (and the non-defense discussions do seem to focus on the combat side of things). I assume the goal of those who agree with that assessment is a way to get more dice for resisting, or reduce the number of dice available to cast with, or both?

[Herald of Verjig...]

I remember seeing a house-bioware originally written for SR2, but the effect may sate those who want more anti-mage defenses.

It was effectively a bacteria colony implanted under the person's skin. The concept was to make spells less applicable to the augmented by adding an overlapping aura that makes getting a spell to stick more difficult. In mechanic terms, it would be 1-3 points of increased TN for some bio index cost deemed balanced and always treated as an unwilling target for magic.

[Kagetenshi]

Always being treated as unwilling is pretty much a dealbreaker, IMO. Just the fact that it seals off Heal and Treat make it essentially not worth considering.

~J

[Sphynx]

[Sphynx]

[nezumi]

Saying barrier and armor are balanced because a mage can cast it on a sam ignores the stipulation of the problem, sams are in trouble without magical support. A mage with firearms skill and a sustained armor spell can easily shrug off a 10S shot. I can come up with a dozen situations where the mage has a clear advantage solely by virtue of being a mage, while very few when the sam has an advantage (the one big one is when they're 'toe to toe', but that's really about it.)

You also seem to be under the impression that willpower 6 comes standard with sams, which really is not the case in my experience. I can't remember the last time I saw a starting sam with a willpower of 6.

There are bazillion threads about this problem, I do know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'd sort of like people who don't play mages or super powered sams weigh in on this.

I do like Herald's suggestion. Very cool piece of bio. There really isn't ANY equipment designed to work against magic, which doesn't make a lick of sense. After twenty years of dealing with magic, you'd think they'd have some ways to deal with magic!

[Platinum]

Any team will naturally be more powerful than an individual, and each person has a role to play. Mages have certain abilities and penalties. Your mages are also vulnerable to things that sammies aren't. If you feel that mages have too much of an advantage, then change some of the base mechanics.

#1. switch initiative back to how it was in SR2 or use a more distributed initiative scheme. Everyone going at the same time was a lame mechanic. yes I know mages hated waiting while the sammies went twice before they could act ... but too bad, speed kills, and that's how it should be.

#2. Allow grounding, or allow magical repercussions for having foci always active. I would think that if you have foci active, you are going to start to attract FAB. After a while of being sick or have the possibility of having to cast through a background count, you can equalize things a little.

As for magic defense for a sammie, that is just munchkin. Shadowrun is a game of paper rock scissors, mages kill sammies, sammies kill adepts, adepts kill mages. That's just how it goes, and that is not a bad thing. It actually encourages the team to stick together and actually become a team.

[Kagetenshi]

Grounding was awesome, but we can't consider it. Force 1 nature spirit, order it to materialize, ground AoE spells through it.

~J

[Platinum]

Why not .... if you do that a few times ... you start to get bad spirit karma. (ie a flaw)

Have it so that the maximum rating of the spell that gets channeled through if equal to the rating of the spirit/focus. The rest backs up in astral space. If you order a force 6 spirit to material and ground through ... then things are different.


Edit: the max grounding through astral perception is equal to the augmented magic rating of the mage/shaman perceiving.

[Kagetenshi]

[tisoz]

[Platinum]

[Kagetenshi]

So I realized many of our problems depend on either fixing or scrapping Spell Design. The Sorcery thread will be delayed a little bit while I consider this and post my thoughts.

~J