Shadowrun 3rd Revised, our backs turned, looking down the path Options

[Sphynx]

I think the mistake made was in separating the martial arts into different arts. I think the maneuvers should have been added as tools for Unarmed Combat. If you want to explain it as "Karate", then you have Unarmed/Karate or Edged Weapons/Karate. There was no need to complicate things (and open up a can of worms for what martial arts get what) when a KISS would have worked well. Use the same rules, but just for already-existing combat skills.

And of course, Whirling and Close Combat were by far the most powerful manuevers. I think that was because they figured they'd over-done the TN modifiers and over-compensated. Whirling should simply be that the TN never exceeds +2 (IMHO), and CloseCombat only halves (round up, not down) the modifiers for reach.

[Stumps]

Melee, as I said before earlier, should be more close to blow-by-blow, considering the time-frame we are talking about.

If it is blow-by-blow, it not only follows plausibility to the human concept of time better, but it also means that this ridiculous concept of maneuvers and styles is not needed as then you would be simply talking about a character that claims an open skill in a style of their choice that they so name, and declares a specific attack as they so decide in the middle of combat, as a fighter would be doing...not some ridiculous Kata form.

This would be inherently balanced by the GM at his discretion of appropriate difficulty rating based on the guidance of the difficulty scale provided in SR for this very concept of situations, and then the player would roll their open skill of fighting style in dice to succeed at the specific attack.

Or in other words, this is a called fricken shot in a blow-by-blow melee system.

Boy....that was real hard to make.

[Critias]

Yeah, but then you have to figure out how much to lower damage by, to note that it's now a single attack being made instead of the old "several seconds of feints, attacks, counters, and blocks, made by both parties" and shit like that.

Oh, and while we're vaguely on the subject, FUCK AMBIDEXTERITY. The two-weapno fighting rules essentially made it a required Edge for anyone with any interest in fighting in close combat well.

[Eyeless Blond]

[tisoz]

[tisoz]

[Sphynx]

Just a quick note. If we use the system I've donated, a 'sam' could spend as little as 6 points to have a spell pool for spell defense via the sorcery skill as a mage does. 2 points for a tradition, 2 points for a magic rating of 1, 2 points for the ability to learn Sorcery. (could even create a 1 point sorcery item that only lets you learn Sorcery for spell defense for a 5 point Spell Defense 'edge')

BTW, as anyone looked at that pdf at all? I joined this conversation and posted it per request, but haven't heard anything from anyone about it yet. Is it that good (or that bad) that there's nothing to say? :P

Alternate Magic Creation House Rules (Includes Psionics)

[Platinum]

I don't understand why unarmed combat was changed, but I think that it should go back to how it was back in second edition. I don't like the mauevers, they just over complicate things. There were rules for subduing, etc... pretty much every scenario was covered. It was up to you and the GM to sort out the choreography of the fight.

Critias is right Ambidexterity needs to be removed.

[Link]

I read nezumi's copy (same version?) but use the old priority system so don't fully comprehend the intricacies of build points. With your 1 Magic 'sam' above, he'd be unable to use cyberware. Such characters would be limited in their roles wouldn't they? No decent samurai, riggers or deckers.

[Sphynx]

Very true. Guess that was a bad idea. :P

[Critias]

[Kagetenshi]

[Stumps]

[nezumi]

Platinum - adepts get the same number of spell points as mundanes - 0. No bound foci.

[Sphynx]

True Nezumi. Since I created the system, our entire team is magically active. Even those who got it for nothing other than Astral Perception. Seriously though, unless we ran a ganger campaign, nobody ever bought less than a Magic rating of 6. Sounds cool to have it dynamic, but everytime, even the 'pure sam' bought it up to 6 (because he needed all the cyber without losing his magic). Breaking it down to parts in the BP system -will- seriously increase the amount of magic in the game (though not everyone will be casting and/or summoning). Personally, I play a Telekinetic Psionic with no Astral Perception or Projection. He's admittedly alot weaker than a Shaman who focuses on telekinetic manip (no foci, no totem bonuses, weaker drain resist, etc). But he's tons more fun to play too. :P

[Platinum]

It blows me away how many little things were houseruled in our game. I would have
sworn that you could have used that, but I did read in 3rd that you can't, as you said.

I am not a complete intentional munchkin.

I remember a few adepts taking weapon foci, and using force points to
bond them. Then again ... last time I played we still used 2nd edition. And there
is no definitive statement in there like there is in 3rd. Thanks for correcting my
error.

[tisoz]

[nezumi]

Lone Star can afford their own mages who make their own sustaining foci. On the other hand, any mage who is making sustaining foci for criminals isn't someone they want on the streets.

Let me ask it like this, if a criminal came up to you and said 'hey, let me buy your car off of you, but uh... I'm not going to change the plates or the registry on it or anything, and you can't claim it's stolen."

Sure, you're not TECHNICALLY committing a crime (although with magical equipment, you almost certainly would be. I imagine it would be controlled like firearms, so selling to a criminal is a federal offense). But you're definitely inviting trouble. Like you said, a free spirit MIGHT do it (but again, if a free spirit is distributing sustaining foci to criminals, he's either going to get killed or somehow spirit-napped. The powers that be really can't allow such an easily controlled source of illegal weapons.)

[Taran]

Sphynx: I like your system, though I agree that introducing it would, in the short term, radically increase the number of PC mages. I can't seem to figure out adepts, though: they pay 2bp for a Tradition, 1 for Adeptery, and then 12 for 6 power points, for a total of 15bp, much less than the 25bp they'd normally pay under the build point system. Is this deliberate? It seems to make it too easy to add adept powers to pure mage characters.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Lindt]

[Taran]

Good catch; I missed that (and it actually does balance perfectly; 2 + 1 + 10 + 12 = 25). It still only costs 13bp to add full adept powers to a mage, though, right? Or 15 if you need 2 traditions? Equivalently, it's only 5-10bp to add full spellcasting to a normal adept? Note that although this costs about as much as Magician's Way in the current system, it's much better because you don't need to trade your power points for Magic.

ETA: It occurs to me that everything I'm worried about can easily be fixed with a hard cap on the number of build points spent on magic at chargen. Every other category in the BP system is capped (no more than 60bp attributes, 60bp skills, etc.), so this is a perfectly precedented thing to do. In a standard 123 game like mine was years ago I'd probably set it at 30 or 35; this might be low. Speak, o creators! Does this sound reasonable to you?

[Kagetenshi]

[Taran]

Yeah, I only just noticed that myself. I think it's desirable, though, if for no other reason than to legitimize the magic cap I just proposed. I do think that straight sixes (or the racial equivalent) are kinda degenerate at chargen; skills really aren't but I doubt that anyone in a standard 123 game is going to butt up against that limit; you'd have to spend too much keeping your attributes up, for one thing.

[Kyoto Kid]

...@Sphynx

Just looked over and downloaded your house rules PDF. Overall, very nice indeed.

A few questions:

Astral Abilities: As I read it, an Adept can begin with Astral Perception (provided she spends the BPs for it) in addition to the powers she purchases with Power Points?

Advancement: Does the character need to allocate Karma to improving her Magic Attribute/Power Points in addition to initiating? Or, once play has started, do just the normal rules for magical advancement in MiTS apply? (This is part of my dislike of SR4 for it could take months of RL time to see any perceptible advancement unless every other mission was a Karma haul or you played several times a week).

Magic Loss: My one other concern is that pesky old rule about Magic Loss from wounds. This is partially brought up by the wording in the description of Power Points where it says that Magic Loss reduces Magic Points allocated to Spellcraft before reducing Power Points. So for a "full adept" (no spellcasting ability) it would still subtract from the Powers as per the original system then, correct?

Admittedly, this is one sore spot I have regarding Adepts since they tend to be more combat focused and therefore more prone to taking wounds than a strict spellcaster (eliminating this rule was one of the few improvements in 4th ED). Adepts also tend to pay a higher price for magic loss, the loss of actual abilities, as opposed to reducing the limit of how powerful of a spell that can be tossed. Furthermore, a spellcaster has several options to compensate for this (foci, overcasting, Elemental assistance, etc) which an adept does not have access to. Basically once the powers are lost, she has to initiate to get them back.