Shadowrun 3rd Revised - Dumpshock Forums

Shadowrun 3rd Revised, our backs turned, looking down the path

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 19 2005, 01:16 PM Post #76
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Eh? Ablative armor helps? You need to hit a vehicle with an attack Power three times the adjusted armor value to reduce the value! Wait. Ablative armor says it isn't hardened and doesn't stage damage. Does that mean it also takes that away from the vehicle it's on? If so, why would anyone take it? ~J

hahnsoo

Apr 19 2005, 01:46 PM

Post #77

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Eh? Ablative armor helps? You need to hit a vehicle with an attack Power three times the adjusted armor value to reduce the value!

Wait. Ablative armor says it isn't hardened and doesn't stage damage. Does that mean it also takes that away from the vehicle it's on? If so, why would anyone take it?

~J

It helps when coming up with a gradient of armor, because you can just stick it onto vehicles that normally do not have armor. Because you add it point-by-point, you can reasonably come up with a wide variety of armored vehicles, other than the "no armor VW Electro" to the uber-armored "Mobmaster Xtreme" and nothing in between.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 19 2005, 02:00 PM Post #78
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	You can do that with regular armor too, and you don't have the problem of making the vehicle in question instantly security-grade (if not military-grade). ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 22 2005, 08:17 PM Post #79
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Still working on Decking, but I wanted to toss this idea out and let it get batted about: some cyberware is marked as "Common" and the Used price for that cyber is divided by something large like 4. The intention of this would be to make certain cyber (spurs, low-end cyberlimbs, etc.) more feasible for ganger-type characters. Opinions or alternate suggestions? ~J

hahnsoo

Apr 22 2005, 08:30 PM

Post #80

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

You can do that with regular armor too, and you don't have the problem of making the vehicle in question instantly security-grade (if not military-grade).

~J

Only if you construct or modify custom vehicles. 90% of the time, GMs will use stats for stock vehicles, and as it stands right now, there isn't much variety in terms of vehicle armor.

Cain

Apr 22 2005, 08:33 PM

Post #81

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Eh? Ablative armor helps? You need to hit a vehicle with an attack Power three times the adjusted armor value to reduce the value!

Accodring to the errata, ablative armor is capped at 3. So, a heavy pistol can strip it away.

hahnsoo

Apr 22 2005, 08:36 PM

Post #82

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Cain)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 19 2005, 06:16 AM)

Eh? Ablative armor helps? You need to hit a vehicle with an attack Power three times the adjusted armor value to reduce the value!

Accodring to the errata, ablative armor is capped at 3. So, a heavy pistol can strip it away.

Erm, you still have to halve the power of the weapon before you apply it against vehicle armor. So you have to have something like a Panther Cannon without AV rounds to strip it all away.

Ablative armor isn't something that you can find on an average street vehicle. However, it's a convenient way to add armor that's low-cost/low-maintenance for non-SOTA security companies. Any idiot can install the stuff.

Kagetenshi

Apr 22 2005, 08:38 PM

Post #83

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (Cain)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 19 2005, 06:16 AM)

Eh? Ablative armor helps? You need to hit a vehicle with an attack Power three times the adjusted armor value to reduce the value!

Accodring to the errata, ablative armor is capped at 3. So, a heavy pistol can strip it away.

1) Each point is two points of Armor, so unless that HP is Power 18 it isn't going to be stripping anything away.

2) This is on top of any and all vehicular armor, and since ablative armor is security-grade minimum there's almost certainly going to be some.

~J

SirBedevere View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 02:31 PM Post #84
Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424	I've been thinking about your suggestions for cyberware, and these are my ideas for items that could be called 'Common': Chipjack Cyberears Cybereyes Datajack (should be very cheap) Subvocal microphone Telephone Cyberlimbs (BTW I think their Essence cost should be 0.5) Autoinjector Biomonitor system Handblade Handrazors Smartlink (I'm not too sure about this one though) Spur BTW, I'm assuming you're talking about 2060s tech, not 2070. While these items may not be the most useful to gangers etc., I think that they would be the most 'common' of used items.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 03:23 PM Post #85
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Right now I'm still focusing on the SR1-3 canon timeframe of 2050-2065. ~J

Shockwave_IIc

Apr 23 2005, 04:28 PM

Post #86

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (SirBedevere)

I've been thinking about your suggestions for cyberware, and these are my ideas for items that could be called 'Common':

Chipjack
Cyberears
Cybereyes
Datajack (should be very cheap)
Subvocal microphone
Telephone
Cyberlimbs (BTW I think their Essence cost should be 0.5)
Autoinjector
Biomonitor system
Handblade
Handrazors
Smartlink (I'm not too sure about this one though)
Spur

Good list.
I personally think that the Biomoniter system should take a lot less essence then it currently does along with the telephone, but thats a different thread.

SirBedevere View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 05:44 PM Post #87
Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424	Thanks for the clarification Kagetenshi. Shockwave, I agree with you, but as you say that's for another thread.

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 05:48 PM Post #88
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	Maybe not the subvocal mike, though. What would a ganger need with that, and why would such a specialized item be cheap? A cybergun, though, and cyberskates I could see being cheap. How about autoinjectors, and dermal plating? Maybe wired Reflexes 1 (but not the Reflex Trigger)?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 05:54 PM Post #89
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Ironically enough Boosted Reflexes would not make sense, as it can't be pulled out of someone and reused. I may follow Doc Funk's lead and introduce the "bad batch" with the same modifications as used, though. ~J

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 05:59 PM Post #90
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	Well you can certainly try and take the chemical treatment out of the nerves. Just melt the whole body in a big vat, then filter out the chemicals you want... :D

SirBedevere View Member Profile	Apr 23 2005, 07:57 PM Post #91
Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424	I did say that all the items wouldn't be useful to gangers etc. The items I mentioned are those that IMO would be 'common' as used cyberware. I can see many people wanting the subvocal microphone so that they can speak on the phone without others hearing. Cyberskates? Yes, quite possibly. Cybergun, I'm not so sure about. What do other people think about it?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 25 2005, 11:05 PM Post #92
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Right, well, I'm still primarily focusing on the Matrix rules, but I realize that they're not an area that most people have a lot of experience with. I was originally going to go to Vehicle rules next, but it was pointed out that a lot of that stuff has major prerequisites. Therefore, I'd like to open discussion for what will be the next thread to be opened: Ranged Combat. What do you want to see? ~J

Modesitt View Member Profile	May 26 2005, 12:09 AM Post #93
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963	I'm assuming that one of your goals IS NOT making combat 'more realistic'. Suggestion #1: Changing how damage is staged up. New way - Step 1: Attacker attacks and counts up successes. Step 2: Defender dodges, subtracts successes from attackers successes, must get one more success than attacker rolled to completely dodge. Step 3: Stage up damage. For every 2 beyond deadly raise power by one. Step 4: Soak. A lot of people play this way anyways. It changes combat in a few ways. 1. The peculiar adept who shoots people with shot rounds at a TN that is always 2 and simply ends up with so many successes that they simply don't have enough dice to stage it down completely - He simply no longer works. 2. It shifts the system in favor of the defender at the higher end. A defender no longer needs to eliminate all of the successes beyond deadly in order to have a chance to stage down damage, he simply needs to get two successes to bring it down to Serious. 3. It makes the ranged and melee combat systems work the same, assuming you don't change melee too. Suggestion #1.5 - Slant combat in favor of the defender in both melee and ranged. Make it so you only need to eliminate all of an attackers successes at dodge to get a clean miss in both ranged combat and melee. I don't like tests going to one party or the other in ties. It feels wrong for someone to be able to successfully hit someone without any net successes. Suggestion #2 - More modifiers outlined. I'd like to see more modifiers for ranged combat outlined. For example, modifiers for shooting at prone people, modifiers for shooting at really fast things, etc. Suggestion #3 - Make the called shot rules work. In my opinion, we should make the idea of a called shot absolutely unappealing for anything but dramatic purposes, like shooting someone in the leg to stop them from getting away, shooting the gun out of the bad guys hand, etc. We should not reward PCs for having every single shot be a called shot to the head. Suggestion #4 - Make shotgun rounds stop qualifying as WMDs. I realize I said wasn't advocating more realism...But I'm going to make an exception here and say that this is so immersion-shattering it isn't even funny. 10 meter wide cone of death? No.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 26 2005, 12:15 AM Post #94
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Indeed, making combat more realistic is not one of my goals. I have no problem with it being a side-effect, but it's not a primary focus. Regarding changing melee combat, it will likely see alterations as well. More on the rest when I've thought about it a bit more. Regarding #3, called shots for anything but special effect do not exist in SR3R. ~J

Shockwave_IIc

May 26 2005, 12:22 AM

Post #95

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Modesitt)

Suggestion #1: Changing how damage is staged up. New way -

Step 1: Attacker attacks and counts up successes.
Step 2: Defender dodges, subtracts successes from attackers successes, must get one more success than attacker rolled to completely dodge.
Step 3: Stage up damage. For every 2 beyond deadly raise power by one.
Step 4: Soak.

A lot of people play this way anyways. It changes combat in a few ways.
1. The peculiar adept who shoots people with shot rounds at a TN that is always 2 and simply ends up with so many successes that they simply don't have enough dice to stage it down completely - He simply no longer works.

While i like this suggestion i do have one issue with it. People with high Body and good armour, become VERY difficult to as they now only need 2 Success to survive in fighting form. Though i do totally see your point about, Burst Firing Shotgun Adepts, think that a "Down and out" Damage lvl is needed. Perhaps, instead of all success past deadly staging power, perhaps only those past the first two? Thus even Trolls and Orks have to worry, But because their high Body, the will still bleed out slowly then mere mortals.

mmu1 View Member Profile	May 26 2005, 12:40 AM Post #96
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058	Ok, let's see... 1. Think about whether any revision needs to be done to the ranged weapon skills themselves. I'm not saying go back to having "Firearms" like in SR2, but the current system goes too far in the opposite direction, IMO. 2. Shotguns. Scrap the current idiotic system entirely - my suggestion would be something simple, like having shot rounds reduce the TN required to hit slightly in exchange for a noticeable drop in power. Realism might not be a primary goal here, but a line has to be drawn somewhere... 3. More of a general combat issue - since realism is not a primary concern, silly shit like dart guns, narcojet, gas grenades, even freakin' pepper spray should be adjusted for game balance, so that getting hit with pepper spray is not more disabling than taking a solid hit from a light pistol, and so on. 4. Clearly define the rules for chemical and poison delivery vs. an armored target. 5. Again, going off topic a bit, but it happens in all kinds of combat: Clarify and simplify the rules for things catching fire... :P 6. Make the Cannon Companion modifers for varying amounts of cover a part of the core rules. I know there was more stuff I had in mind, but my memory is being flaky, so more later. Probably...

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 26 2005, 12:46 AM Post #97
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Regarding #5, should I be making sure to clarify and simplify the rules for lighting zombies on fire? ;) ~J

hyzmarca

May 26 2005, 01:04 AM

Post #98

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (Papadoc)

QUOTE (BitBasher @ Apr 14 2005, 04:52 PM)

QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen @ Apr 14 2005, 02:31 PM)

A legality system that makes sense. Right now you'll need a permit for an AP and another one for your browning max power and another one for your Ares light fire. I mean, you can avoid this by carrying multiples of the same gun, but in most countries a permit to carry a pistol is a permit to carry any pistol. Also, it should be possible to get a permit for anything that are used by others than the military. (i.e. if security corps can carry it on the street, there should be a permit for it)

No, really it isn't. I live in Nevada, one of the more liberal laws realted to carry and in order to carry I have to have on me the blue card for every specific gun I happen to be carrying. For each individual gun I carry concealed I have to pay 25 bucks to have it added to my CCW, specifically by serial number. That's after qualifying for the gun, and waiting a few months. I have to say SR is pretty much right on. Licencing is headed twords more specific, not less specific to boot.

Furthermore, as an individual there's no good reason to have a permit available to carry anything that a security company can carry. You aren't a security company. If you're a licenced bodyguard you'll have a security permit anyway. Even security companies carry lethal force in SR anyway, about half of them are only rated for nonlethal force.

Hate to break it to you, but here in Missouri we are issued a CCW, (after taking a CCW class tought by a certified instructor and passing a criminal background check), which is a "endorsement" on our drivers license. This is good for ANY concealed weapon we wish to carry. And in our private vehicles we can carry loaded and concealed any weapon we so choose, without any permit (other than any that are required by law i.e. Class-3 full auto), and this at age 21 to boot.

Here is Georgia you just walk into any courthouse, pay $25, an dprove you are over 21. They do a background check to make sure your not a felon but not much of one. The CCW can be used for any legaly owned weapon and can be presented at gunstores to exempt you from background checks and any associated waiting periods.

Fresno Bob

May 26 2005, 01:17 AM

Post #99

Neophyte Runner

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QUOTE

...so that getting hit with pepper spray is not more disabling than taking a solid hit from a light pistol, and so on.

This is probably wrong, but isn't one of the selling points of Pepper Spray that it incapacitates people better than a pistol?

SirBedevere View Member Profile	May 26 2005, 08:58 AM Post #100
Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424	I've never been on the wrong end of pepper spray, but I have been exposed to CS gas and it is very unpleasant! Get a good(?) lungful of that and you have problems doing anything.

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