 Decking, the SR3R way |
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 Sep 14 2005, 08:59 PM
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#201
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
The illegal cyberdeck industry will build on parts from the legal cyberdeck industry, an industry which has no real motivation to shrink cyberdecks. These aren't items that individuals are assumed to be owning under most circumstances, and they won't be marketed as such. There are already pocket/wrist/etc. computers in SR3 canon, and like a Blackberry they're nowhere near the level of a [full computer/cyberdeck].
The whole Blackberry argument is a red herring, pure and simple. Or if it isn't, show me someone who does serious work on one—not writing emails, but video editing, or coding, or anything of that nature. Anything comparable to what a cyberdeck does in the least. Email, basic web browsing, and memos don't begin to count. ~J |
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Sep 14 2005, 10:59 PM
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#202
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
A cyberdeck is a cyberterminal with a Masking rating, no more, no less.
This means that there is no legal cyberdeck industry. If it has a Masking rating, it's an illegal cyberdeck. If it doesn't, it's a legal cyberterminal. And you can turn a legal cyberterminal into an illegal cyberdeck by installing Masking chips. And there are plenty of reasons to make cyberterminals smaller. This fact is readily observable in real life. No, palm computers aren't as fast as desktops. However, that you can get a palm-sized computer at all is evidence of a tremendous push towards miniaturization. Ten years ago, you couldn't. Twenty years ago, "portable" meant "it has a handle on it". Thirty years ago, a small computer was one that didn't need special reinforced floors. And the Blackberry would blow the doors off even the ones that did need special reinforced floors. What makes you think that the forces that have turned the IBM 5100 into a Blackberry are going to suddenly vanish, leaving everyone in the Shadowrun world happy with their portable computers being big and clunky even by mid-1990s-laptop standards? |
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Sep 14 2005, 11:25 PM
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#203
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Haven't you been listening? Apparently only crimminals use cyberterminals, just like only doctors and drug dealers use pagers and cell phones. :)
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Sep 15 2005, 12:54 AM
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#204
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
While a computer is, meanwhile, not a cyberterminal.
Matrix, page 16. "Hacking is […] also defined as using a cyberterminal with Masking or Evasion programs (in other words, a cyberdeck) without the licenses to do so." Emphasis mine. There is a legal cyberdeck industry. There is no consumer cyberdeck industry. The consumer industry primarily drives miniaturization.
Cost vs. benefit. If you make it much smaller you add risk of theft to a device that there is no consumer market for. If you have a computer, the benefit to a minicomputer is less floor space and less special reinforcement of the floor. If you have a minicomputer, the benefit to a microcomputer is negligible floorspace and no reinforcement of the floor. If you have something that you can stack over a dozen of in less than a square meter of floorspace, can easily carry around, and is large enough to be nontrivial to steal without a bag or very baggy coat, what is the advantage to shrinking it? ~J |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:24 AM
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#205
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Equipment weight when military deckers may have to physically enter an enemy facility to tap into its network. |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:27 AM
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#206
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
By canon, cyberdecks are weightless ;)
~J |
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Sep 15 2005, 01:49 AM
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#207
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
To the degree that this statement is correct, it's irrelevant. To the degree that it's relevant, it's incorrect.
You're nitpicking, and evading my actual point. There's no consumer cyberdeck industry, but there is a consumer cyberterminal industry, and the only thing that distinguishes the one from the other is the presence of a Masking chip. If cyberterminals improve, cyberdecks will follow. And the pressure is there to improve cyberterminals.
Oh, you're right, there's no demand at all for making hardware, especially portable hardware, lighter and more compact. That's why laptops are still two inches thick and weigh ten pounds. That's why my cell phone is the size and weight of a brick. That's why no one has invented a palmtop computer. It's because it's harder to steal that way! |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:02 AM
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#208
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Any way you slice it this isn't particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. If you'd like we can take it to PM.
~J |
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Sep 15 2005, 02:51 AM
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#209
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
Regarding the unified CCSS-Matrix in SR4. When SR2 introduced CCSS it was to protect areas where the matrix system was compromised. It's the concept, not just the rules, that make it different, even if the rules are poor.
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Sep 15 2005, 03:09 AM
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#210
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Or even to a new thread; there seems to be enough widespread interest in the topic to warrant it.
Anyway, back to the original point of incorporating SR4 decking rules into SR3R. I haven't had the time to completely read through the SR4 Matrix rules, but I've heard good things about them. If we do incorporate them though I vote that we don't make some sort of dual system where the SR3 rules are used for servers and SR4 rules are used for everything else. Decking is already percieved as an incredibly difficult set of rules to learn; there's no need to make it even worse, is there? :) |
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Sep 15 2005, 03:20 AM
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#211
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
The question is however, how many of us want a system half based on a ruleset we don't own?
Not wanting to sound like a penny pincher but i don't want to have to buy SR4 to understand the SR3R rules. Incorperate yes by all means but if we/i need to have to SR4 rules to crossrefence terms and such then i Vote Nay |
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Sep 15 2005, 03:28 AM
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#212
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No matter what comes you will absolutely not have to own a single SR4 book to use SR3R. If we can't make it ours enough to print it in the SR3R Supplement, it isn't going in.
~J |
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Sep 15 2005, 06:13 AM
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#213
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
While "unifying" the mechanic for both "small fries" decking on a simple device and large scale decking on systems is a Good Thing ™, I don't want to completely destroy and rewrite existing rules to match SR4. There are good parts about SR3's decking system (it simulates decking into big-bad servers better, while SR4 simulates hacking individual devices better), and more importantly, those rules exist because of the kind of decking that is actually done in SR3's timeline (just as SR4's hacking is a reflection of the kind of illicit computer activity that works in 2070). Again, the mechanic that I proposed simplifies the SR3's decking system to the bare bones for simple devices, and makes it so that you don't have to worry about MPCP or persona at all, just load the programs onto a computer with sufficient memory. This way, you can hack vending machines or coffee makers without coming up with a security sheaf, security system color, ACIFS ratings, etc.
As far as miniaturization, the fact that Cranial Cyberdecks exist in SR3 (and have since 2055, or whenever Shadowtech came out) suggests that Cyberdecks have been miniaturized to the point where you could reasonably fit all of the essential components into a CD-player-sized unit. That's where the technology stands, so it is possible, and there's nothing to stop a decker from making a "mini-deck" for on-the-go decking. You can even hide the components in a case that resembles something else. Also, Cyberdecks aren't "illegal" under all circumstances. They are restricted (by licenses) to security deckers and agencies and probably the military, which isn't quite the same thing. There are licenses to have cyberdecks, and manufacturers do make cyberdecks (Matrix p16). Otherwise, why would there be things like the Fuchi/Novatech Cyber-6 at all? I'd also like to note that the sale of any cyberterminal with an MPCP greater than 4 is restricted in a similar manner (p56). |
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Sep 15 2005, 07:41 AM
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#214
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
I would suggest that the concept can easily be retained whilst keeping a nice clean ruleset. Let's say that in '65, a security corp comes out with a device that allows clean integration of rigger simsense with Matrix-based security systems, as opposed to SR3's cludgy and ineffective version of the same hardware. This is immediately very popular for installation in facilities where having a tight connection between the security enforcers (alarm systems, drones etc) and the data side of things (authorised access lists, SK-supervised camera systems with face recognition, etc) is essential. It's also popular amongst corps who realise that they can now have the security of their drone command infrastructure maintained by inexpensive IC, vs. requiring 24-hour attendance by security riggers with extensive training and hardware requirements. Over the next few years, it is realised that it is perfectly possible to have Matrix-isolated security networks that still use the now-popular Standardised Simsense Systems by simply running security-related hardware/software on dedicated hosts that are not connected to the Matrix at large (or are connected only to other hosts deep within private grids). This would imply that the security networks can only be decked from within the facility, as is the case for CCSS-enabled buildings. Of course it would mean that both riggers and deckers would be able to do this hacking, but I for one don't have a problem with that. It's not like having your systems crackable by two different sub-classes of professional criminal actually makes any difference to your actual security, compared to having them crackable by only one sub-class of professional criminal. |
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Sep 16 2005, 01:06 AM
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#215
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
They were also vulnerable to a high level rigger-decker multiclass character. :)
The current decking rule is a success contest between decker skill (ACIFS - program rating) and system (detection factor). Changing it to skill (ACIFS - program rating) and system (detection factor - program/firewall rating), where detection factor is masking + sleaze, makes it useful across more tests with that SR4 touch. :? Needs more thought but the point is to be able to use programs to decrease TN on both sides. |
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Apr 9 2006, 07:51 PM
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#216
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
New Operations quick-reference sheet. As you can see, descriptions are incomplete (read: nonexistent) and will mostly contain page references to SR3 operations, as the actual operations have been changed very little. The main exception here is Validate and Invalidate Account, which will have new rules (to be added soon-like).
Program list, same deal as the operations sheet. If anyone wants to help with these, the best way to do it would be to just build a Decker using the standard chargen rules (dedicated Decker, Combat Decker, Otaku, whatever) and these listed program costs and see what you come out the other end with. That'll probably be the best guide for whether the multipliers need to be tweaked or not. ~J |
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Apr 10 2006, 02:59 PM
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#217
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Update: expect the rest of the standard Utilities (Offensive, Defensive, Special) either tonight or tomorrow. If anyone has concerns or suggestions regarding these, speak now.
Actual rules changes later in the week. ~J |
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Dec 12 2006, 11:13 AM
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#218
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I think the biggest change needed to decking is making it all wireless. As much as I love the cyber-genre that the books had in the 80's, from a tech point of view, we would simply never rely on an optical wire to 'plug in'. By the time tech gets here for a virtual matrix, we'll all be wireless. I think that's the one and only advantage there was to SR4, and should be implemented in any updates to SR3.5
Also, like in SR4, no need for a datajack (wireless datajack) for most things. Carry around a computer (Pocket Secretary) with a wireless link to your glasses and get auto-logged in to dmz's of visited places (and get logged being there). See the time, your cred, etc, all at a simple voice command. Tech is the major area of work needed in an SR3 upgrade. |
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Dec 18 2006, 09:32 AM
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#219
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
I disagree there. Direct jacking isn't indicative of a low tech world. I'd say that wireless wouldn't have the sheer bandwidth required to deal with ASIST. There's certainly things I like a lot about the wireless matrix. There's some cool stuff for certain. I just don't think it fits in the SR3 world, or it's matrix system. We're simplifying the system, revising, not altogether changing it or retrofitting SR4's system. Kage, I hope that when you/we're done with SR3R we are going to have it in complete PDF format with complete descriptions and explanations. I think SR3R should be readable and understandable by some-one who doesn't know the Source matrix rules too well (me) and shouldn't have to trawl backwards through the battlefield that are the SR3R threads. edit: From another thread.
Just like they ripped off Neuromancer's Matrix? Yeah pretty much. edit: Actually, that gives me an idea. What if we keep the fundamentals of decking (particularly, the WIRED matrix, servers, hosts etc.) but also implement some wireless elements, similar to GitS's combination of net diving and the more wireless hacking that is also exhibited. This would require extra hardware such as an upgrade/attachment/wireless adapter to the cyberdeck. This way we could have the wired matrix, but also be able to forge a direct link to things such as slaves (electronic doors, cameras?). I think the drawback would be the radically increased signature among other things. I'm not going to say how it works, I'll leave that to others, but I think the concept has some merit. |
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Dec 18 2006, 07:48 PM
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#220
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's my plan.
This part depends. Anything that we change enough that it's essentially the work of the SR3R project will stand alone. Anything that relies heavily on canon SR3 rules will not stand alone.
The goal is to allow users of SR3R to never have to know these threads existed.
In our games we've assumed something vaguely like this—I say "vaguely" because what we've done is more made the equivalent of modern internet access fairly ubiquitous (for example, I assume that pocket secretaries can browse two-dimensional low-interactivity Matrix sites and send and receive 2050s email), but decking requires a landline or special equipment. ~J |
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Dec 19 2006, 03:09 AM
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#221
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
Like what? (sorry, obviously I only have a mild grasp of the matrix rules. And I don't have the SR3 Matrix book.) edit: By the way reading over those PDF's, I'm loving the revisions in the matrix area. Good work so far. |
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Dec 19 2006, 03:13 AM
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#222
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well, a Deck and a Datajack come to mind. |
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Dec 19 2006, 03:16 AM
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#223
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Radio link, satellite link, LASER link, microwave link, that kind of thing.
~J |
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Jan 15 2007, 06:14 AM
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#224
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
So what's going on with SR3R? I'm building a Decker character, and am stumped at the point of buying her utilities/programs.
Are we getting any more content? |
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Jan 15 2007, 06:31 AM
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#225
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Officially still going (I'll make an update if that ever changes), and I'm still spending time on it, but the proofs due Tuesday (and Friday, and the Tuesday after, and the Friday after, and…) get first priority. The utilities part, at least the operational utilities, is pretty much finalized though. There's a link to a sheet with them somewhere in this thread, hopefully in the first post. ~J |
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