Decking, the SR3R way Options

[Platinum]

[Platinum]

Eyeless why is there a random security tally for just logging on to an LTG or RTG? That doesn't seem to make any sense to me. People only get suspicious when you start running commands... not just logging in.

In your example how does host2 know what host1's tally is or vice versa?

In order to tunnel out from a host to another you need to either find a back door out to the matrix or have executed a shell command on the server.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Link]

Considering the subject, your tunnelling explanation was pretty clear (firewall meant a chokepoint and intranet a host-host array to coin the SR vernacular, yes?) After I read it I wondered why introduce a new mechanic that's essentially governed by host logons and access ratings, so I went back and read your earlier posts.

[nezumi]

I would assume an LTG or RTG would only have a security tally if someone were trying to directly attack the LTG or RTG itself. If the L/RTG has controlled access and the person is trying to get around that, that would count. Otherwise, popping around to different hosts would be a valid operation. Since, presumably, the L/RTG holds their operational files on a separate host from the public grid, it would seem to me that the only actions which would raise flags would be intercepting comm calls or other forms of communication when not authorized, cyber combat, and somehow trying to crash the host.

I would also still suggest that there be some degree of regionalization. Someone screwing around at the main RTG level shouldn't result in Aztechnology's online book store host having a tally of 20 (otherwise, running up a high enough tally at the RTG would shut down every linked host!) This would also explain why an RTG can have a tally of say 10 without sending a probe after every user on the system (which, I imagine, would rather grind the RTG to a halt). Instead, it only sends out a few probes in the approximate location of the problem and reports the issue out.

[Eyeless Blond]

[nezumi]

I understand Blond's assessment, and I do agree to how tough chokepoints should be. They should pretty much guarantee the decker's tally will go up, and I like the idea of them requiring tunneling (he's just working to constantly hide his track through the chokepoint from the host's natural defenses). Like he said, a direct connection through the facility generally means he skips the chokepoint, but has to deal instead with the facility's physical defenses.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Platinum]

[nezumi]

I like all of Eyeless Blond's suggestions. Assumedly IC will still be dispatched to the point of the infraction and begin searching there, and you would see more wandering IC every where else as the tally goes up, sort of like how the human body reacts to the introduction of a foreign substance.

[Platinum]

[Eyeless Blond]

So, everyone like those rules for security tally? If so, let's move on to IC and the other security trigger steps.

1. One thing we need to do there is make IC and the other triggered events not automatically find the offending decker, especially as with these rules there absolutely will be more IC and other trigger steps active, even before the decker himself gets near the system. I'd go so far as to say that particularly sensetive Red systems will be at Passive Alert at least a few times a week, just from background Tally.
2. Maybe the way Security Deckers are used on an alert should be changed as well?
3. I like the SR4 idea of Agents, IC, and drone Pilot programs basically being constructed the exact same way, and I really like the freedom that the SR4 rules give those Agent/IC/Pilots. Is there any way to replicate that here, and how would we do it?
4. How about the different options for IC? I know we're looking at changing the Trace program; any others?
5. (Somewhat OT, but): Other than being used to avoid traces and the Evade Detection maneuver, what else does Evasion do? I can't seem to remember it doing anything else. Should it be more important?

[Link]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Eyeless Blond]

Cross-posted from the Initiative and Timing thread:

The timing issue is really not because of initiative, but because of the differences between systems. In particular the decker is the real problem here. Walking through scripted metaphors creates an all-important symbolic barrier between him and the rest of the team. It's too confusing and distracting for the rest of the team to be constantly interjecting about what fantasy realm the decker is dealing with today, and the result is usually his part of the run is resolved either before or after everyone else, in the rare cases where deckers are even used.

There's also the issue that the way security tally and IC triggering and suppression encourages a smash-and-run mentality when it comes to decking, as opposed to the Overwatch mentality that would be much more beneficial to a concurrently-working team. Look at the Infiltration Challenge thread for a beautiful example of how the Overwatch mentality, rather than endless obsessing over seperate-but-equal metaphors can make for a great decking run, that works concurrently with the meatspace run. Note also that the deck and decking rules had to be seriously twinked just to keep the decker in the system long enough to actually be *able* to do any Overwatch without getting instantly smashed.

Again, though, these are not really issues related to initiative and timing so much as they are a result of the current Decking rules, and they actually should be discussed in there.


In short, I think we should consider these two things:

1) As cool flavor-wise as those fully-immersive sculpted metaphors are, for the most part during an actual run they don't really help. During a run they don't add to the atmosphere, and extra time the GM has to spend describing the decker's actions take away from the rest of the team. The best way to fix this IMO would be to have some sort of switchable mode that made it favorable for the decker to use the nonstandard metaphors when not actually in a run, but would be preferable to switch off when doing activities during an actual run.

2) As it is, the rules for accumulating Security Tally necessitate a smash-and-run mentality to decking, especially at low levels. Tally accumulates so quickly when your DF is less than 11-12 that even in the most lax of systems you can't usually manage to stick around for more than a few dozen or so actions before activating a bunch of IC, or even an alert. This is fine for datasteals, but an actual run usually involves more than the decker spending 45 seconds raiding the server for data, then sending everything into lockdown because of his intrusion. What we need is a way for the decker to be subtle in his actions when he needs to be, possibly in exchange for some tradeoff, so he can actually still be in the system when his teammates need his help rather than being chased all over the place by IC.


A thought I had to solve both of these problems in one shot would be to re-purpose the reality filter to the task. As it stands the reality filter is a little-used piece of optional hardware that only works on rare occasions, and tends to incur large penalties if unsuccessful. My idea is to make the filter an integrated part of all decks, much like Evasion and Masking chips are, though it wouldn't have a rating. The reality filter would be a switchable mode that, when active, would reliably strip away the sculpted metaphors (to solve problem 1), as well as providing some sort of bonus to DF (+3-6 would be good I think, to solve problem 2).

The only problem I'm having is deciding what kind of penalty could be assigned such that the filter wouldn't be used when not in run-mode, but still useful in run-mode. Maybe the book penalty of reducing MPCP of 1 would work, along with reducing Sensor rating by 3? This is the part that I'm having trouble with.

Other thoughts?

[nezumi]

So your suggestion for #1 is to make it so deckers can somehow... interact with the wired world while still doing stuff in the real world? Instead of doing stuff totally in VR, doing stuff in real life with the VR overlaid on top of it, like some sort of... Augmented Reality?

Crazy talk.

[Kagetenshi]

I agree. That really seems like a ridiculous idea unless we're going to entirely throw out the Matrix as it is.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

[nezumi]

I agree with 2, reduce how quickly the tally counts up if he isn't doing anything. If anything, it should decrease if he sits there quietly for an hour or two. I think some of the solutions we've suggested with dealing with tally deal with that problem.

As for 1... In reality, I wouldn't mind something vaguely similar to AR. Not real AR< but the virtual dashboard. Something to allow the decker to multi-task, doing stuff IRL, then jumping back to his idle persona when necessary. The most graceful solution to this, IMO, is to break down more of what the deck actually does. It should be its own, self-contained node (like what Hiro has in Snow Crash, with its own dictionary, atlas, files, etc. that you can interact with without having to be online), and with more useful tools he can bring with him INCLUDING access to the video feed from his deckboard camera, his deck's mic, and the ability to transmit through the deck cell phone/transceiver/speaker, all undetectable and using free actions. So while he's technically in the matrix, he has a window into the real world so he can see what is going on. He's still stationary, but at least he isn't isolated.

[Platinum]

I think the an AR interface is neat, but in reality it is just a fancy dumb terminal or GUI that sits on top of the matrix. In the matrix you can actually edit the dataflow and are interfacing with the host processors, AR is clicking on a mouse that executes an instruction set or program that does the interfacing to the host processor for you.

Now that being said, you can add some create flavour in there, but it is a layer that sits on top of the matrix.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Kagetenshi]

Another possibility is to let tally accrue at its current rate, but lengthen the distances between events on the security sheaf for most host types. That way the clock ticks down just as fast, but on weak hosts there's more time left on it.

As for on-the-fly decking (neither Augmented Reality nor Mediated Reality cover what we're talking about here, which is basically a fancy HUD and input method) I say implement it with an imagelink (or displaylink), transducer, datajack, and something on the other end of a datacable (or built-in, for those who swing that way). I figure it's basically a hands-free, mobile Tortoise mode.

~J

[fistandantilus4....]

This thread, and the other SR3R threads are being moved over to Community Projects. The original Shadowrun 3rd Revised thread will remain in the Shadowrun forum. They're getting quite a lot of traffic and are sticking to the top of the Shadowrun forum, but would be more appropriately placed in Community Projects.

[Eyeless Blond]