 SR4 Firearms: Caseless and Cased on one weapon? |
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 Apr 18 2005, 07:03 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642  |
What's going to happen to the Omega Pool in SR4, that's what I needs ta know! :grr:
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Apr 19 2005, 01:41 AM
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#77
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
You're getting things mixed up here. First, Colt had nothing whatsoever to do with the FBI contracts. S&W made the guns, the model number for which was 1076, and Federal Cartridge provided the ammunition, which was an FBI-specified, down-loaded version of the 10mm Auto (180 grain JHP @ 950 fps). Second, the .40 S&W is not a "necked down" (meaning reduced caliber) version of the 10mm Auto. Bullets for both are .400". The .40 S&W has a slightly shortened case compared to the 10mm Auto (from 0.992" to 0.850"). As a result the .40 S&W, which was developed by Winchester/Olin, could be used in pistols with a smaller grip circumference while retaining the ballistics the FBI had specified. The full story. Of the 10mm handguns I have had the opportunity to shoot, I think the EAA Witness (Tanfoglio Combat) has the most potential, being heavily based on another well-proven design, the CZ75 (Which the original Bren Ten was developed from as well). The other was the Glock 20. The Witness was heavier which soaked a little bit more recoil, accuracy was fair enough and the gun just plain felt right to me, unlike the Glock 20. I didn't think either was "unweildy", even with hotter-than-average (Cor-Bon) loads. In fact, I would love to own a 10mm EAA Witness. The HK MP5/10 is designed to handle all loads of 10mm Auto, including both subsonics and the heavy 200 grain @ 1200 fps loads that Dornaus & Dixon developed with Jeff Cooper, and Norma loaded and sold. As such, I personally think it is one of the best submachine guns devised so far. |
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Apr 19 2005, 01:47 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Thanks for the true information. I didn't realize that I used the term necked down when I actually meant to use shortened.
While it clearly offers significant improvements over the 9 x 19mm and .45 ACP I somewhat wonder about the heavier 10 x 25mm rounds establishing a firm hold on the future. Perhaps the problems keeping it from being firmly established currently might not be as much of an issue in the future but I tend towards thinking it's pretty much always going to be a specialist weapon rather than a general purpose handgun. |
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Apr 19 2005, 06:42 PM
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#79
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Perhaps more for others information than yours... A good rule of thumb to follow in determining whether a cartridge is "necked down" or not would be to note whether the case has a shoulder or not (that angular bit between the area that contains the powder, and the neck, which actually holds the bullet; much more characteristic of rifle cartridges). For example, like most handgun cartridges, both the 10mm Auto and .40 S&W use a straight-walled case. Whereas the .357 SIG is a .40 S&W case loaded with .357" (~9mm) bullets and so is necked down in order to hold them. The same goes for the .41 to 9mm Action Express cartridges, .45 ACP to .400 Cor-Bon, etc...
I think the 10mm Auto, along with other handgun cartridges that are more powerful than what is considered combat-viable today, such as the .44 Auto Mag, would make a marked comeback in the world of Shadowrun, especially at the dawn of goblinization when a lot of people wouldn't understand what was happening beyond the fact that potential urban threats are getting bigger and thus more difficult to stop with the more common handgun cartridges. They would need something to counter that threat. From there it just makes sense to bring back what has worked in the past, though some "reinventing of the wheel" would likely occur as well. New gun designs able to help compensate for the heavier recoil would also be devised, as sometimes the threat would be more than just potential. Ork or Troll shadowrunners, for example, not to mention the more common-variety gang members and such. |
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Apr 19 2005, 06:52 PM
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#80
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Basically, a "practical" use for the X-Frame handguns?
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Apr 19 2005, 07:00 PM
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#81
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
They should just get rid of ammo all together...be more like hollywood...or since there's a jump in time everyone should have lasers...yeah lasers and flying cars!!!
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Apr 19 2005, 07:05 PM
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#82
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
SR3 has flying cars, and sharks. I saw it in a picture once. And lasers. And elf pr0n. Hey, wait a minute! Why again do we need SR4? EDIT: Oh right, so we can attach the frickin' lasers onto the heads of the sharks. |
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Apr 19 2005, 07:10 PM
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#83
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
I'll take hungry awakened seabass over laser headed sharks anyday.
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Apr 19 2005, 07:10 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Nah you just need to rule that the sharks have cybergun eyes. And maybe someone will have developed offensive laser cybereyes by 2070. Of course for them to hit effectively they need to have skillwires with a firearms or laser skillsoft but that's not too bad for laser shooting shark minions. |
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Apr 19 2005, 08:25 PM
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#85
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Yep. It would be a pretty decent Troll-stopper. |
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Apr 19 2005, 08:29 PM
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#86
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you retards. read the rules--sharks don't have a top-mounted accessory slot. no laser sights for you!
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Apr 19 2005, 08:33 PM
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#87
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
mfb hash a Dutch akzhent. Izhunt zat veird? :)
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Apr 19 2005, 08:39 PM
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#88
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you vetards!
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Apr 23 2005, 04:33 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Regarding spent casings as forensic evidence, who cares?
First of all, throw the weapon away afterward. Firearms are cheap and plentiful in the SR universe. A tricked-out handgun still only costs, what, 2,000 nuyen? If you're getting paid 40k, throw the gun into a furnace and write it off as business expenses. Number two, jurisdiction is so tangled in SR that it hardly matters. You get flown into Sydney by SK to extract a researcher from MCT, then fly back to Berlin the next day. MCT has no particular interest in knowing that it was you who did it. And what are they going to do, ask SK to extradite you? When you're long gone with a new identity and a loft in Queens? Number three, jurisdiction is so often "who cares?" that it hardly matters. You get hired as muscle in a turf war between syndicates in the Redmond Barrens. Eighteen gangers dead at the end of the day. Serious police investigations? Zero. |
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Apr 23 2005, 04:45 PM
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#90
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you're getting paid ¥40k, that ¥2k is 5% of your total pay, or enough to pay slightly under half of Middle lifestyle rent this month. That's unacceptable losses.
~J |
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Apr 23 2005, 04:57 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, yeah. depends. i figure it's SOP to swap out barrels and firing pins every few runs, if not more often. it's not perfect, but it's cheaper than replacing the whole weapon + accessories.
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Apr 23 2005, 06:16 PM
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#92
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Not everyone in the Shadowrun universe is a "shadowrunner", either. Certainly what Zen Shooter has said makes a lot of sense from one stand point and should be considered for others, but it's not the best answer to every situation.
In the provided example, MCT might be extremely interested in finding out who you are, depending on the value they've assessed to the researcher you extracted. The evidence of a case left behind could certainly help them find you, through the fixer/dealer you hocked the gun with, a fingerprint on the case, etc... It's just one less thing to worry about. |
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Apr 23 2005, 06:22 PM
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#93
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
How much information is really going to be left on a case? They can get caliber and manufacture, but beyond that? You should alreacy have burned the barrel and firing pin if not the entire weapon, so ballistics shouldn't matter, and you should have known to wipe down all mission rounds for prints and loaded your mags with gloves. That doesn't leave much, unless I've really overlooked something.
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Apr 23 2005, 08:20 PM
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#94
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
The point, Arethusa, is that you, being the gun wielder, may not have the opportunity to do those things at your convenience, and that it might be possible for others to find you, or at least build up a case against you, because of the information found on a case or cases you left behind. Obviously, no one is going to catch you if you do everything perfectly. The problem is that you (yes, even you) are bound to fuck up somewhere. And with understanding your own fallibility, eliminating one source of indentifying your presence and associating it as the gun wielder is not necessarily a bad idea.
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Apr 23 2005, 11:06 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
MCT doesn't need to know who you are, they just need to know that SK was behind it. Coming down on the individual shadowrunner after the fact does nothing for their bottom line.
Actually, it makes more sense for MCT to play you back against SK. Coerce or induce you to use the relationship you've built with SK for MCT's benefit. But back to forensics and ballistics: keep in mind that whatever information might be gleaned from casings is only useful if there is something to compare it to. A fingerprint, for example, is no good to MCT if your fingerprints aren't on record in a database MCT has access to. Kagetenshi, RE the percentage of your pay that the disposable firearm represents: mechanics don't keep every dollar you give them. Neither do doctors, roofers, bars, or just about anybody else. They spend a good chunk of it on supplies. |
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Apr 24 2005, 01:32 AM
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#96
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
And how exactly do you figure they'll come by that information? Devine intervention? The only thing that should be linking SK to your presence at MCT in that case is YOUR TEAM, assuming A) that team members aware of who they are working for have been secure enough to keep it to themselves, and B) that MCT didn't get other information to suspect SK of planning such a thing.
Or whoever they hire to figure it out. Depending on how hard you hit them, they could put a shitload of resources into figuring out who did the punching, and your team will be the major connecting link in the chain. Certainly there could be other, more incriminating evidence left behind. But if the only thing you're not concerned about is a cartridge case, you'd better be an extra cool Shadowrunner and start thinking about considering that, too. Especially when your job involves seriously busting the balls of an outfit with far more resources than you have. You think SK is going to back you up if you fuck up the show? Hell no. They'll throw you to the wolves as soon as they figure it out. You're just a scumbag-deniable-asset shadowrunner! |
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Apr 24 2005, 01:44 AM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Sure, if they catch you in the act, interrogating might be useful. But runners are often hired blind. As you well know, Ray, you can't tell what you don't know. Furthermore, there is the danger that the runners themselves are disinformation agents, who allowed themselves to be captured.
MCT gets a hot computer sciences researcher extracted from their warm embrace in Australia. So they look around at their competitors for the someone most likely to pull a high temperature extraction, they look around their competitors to see where the researcher surfaces next (publicly or covertly). They look around to see who needs a researcher like the one they lost. That's how you find out who did it. They also look around in their own shop to see how it was that the information that allowed the extraction to happen leaked out. Finding that answer will usually explain a lot. But putting a lot of resources into pursuing the actual runners after the job is done and the package is delivered doesn't do much for MCT. But none of this matters if you just throw your guns in furnace. It is, however, good business for SK to back you up to a certain degree. Your getting caught is not good for SK; bad publicity, your giving up information during interrogation, you being turned to a double agent because SK back-stabbed you. So it makes sense for SK to do some data forgery to keep you out of MCT's clutches. And throw your guns in a furnace. |
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Apr 24 2005, 02:40 AM
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#98
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Sure. That's a possibility. But you were hired by someone. And they knew something you didn't. "So what did he look like? Where did you meet him? How did you contact him? I'll give you a nice lollypop if you tell me..."
And to that end they'll fight to the point of escape, to be found only by cartidge cases left behind! Crafty bastards!
"Man. It looks like there are about 10 different companies out there that would like to have a piece of this, and with the resources to pull this kind of thing off, too. And homeboy is completely off the radar. What next?"
And it could dead-end, too.
Except for, you know, give them an idea of where to start looking in order to get the guy back? "Maybe he isn't cooperating. He was pretty loyal to the company, you know... What's next?" "Well, we find the fuckers who left all this phyiscal evidence behind. Oh, it's an odd cartridge? Hmm. Oh, extraction marks are unique? Hmm. Fluted chamber? What does that mean? Appears to be a custom gun, you say? Well, he's unlikely to want to throw that in a furnace anytime soon. Let's see if we can find any similar marks in other forensic databases. No, I don't care how. The boss is up my ass on this. Outsource it." And so on... The circumstances are not always the same. The less evidence you leave behind, the better, 100% of the time. Period. Most of the time a cartridge case won't matter. But in some cases it very well might. Anyway, I'm thinking that further argument against an example that is designed to support your point would be a giant waste of my time. What do you think? |
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Apr 24 2005, 02:56 AM
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#99
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Yeah, but who says it even needs to be a tricked out handgun. Just take an old Ruger Mk. 2 with a homemade silencer. Curse when it jams on you, the guards appear, and then you're stuck with .22 LR. *ahem* I mean, discard it and don't feel bad about it after you silently shoot your mark in the face 10 times, drop the magazine, and shoot him 10 times more. |
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Apr 24 2005, 04:39 AM
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#100
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Empty a magazine from the Beretta .25 you bought off the corner. Does the trick every time. [Mossad style]
...and screw the furnace, put the damn thing on the bottom of Puget Sound. |
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