Cash for Karma; Karma for Cash; Do you allow these, Optional rules of Cash-Karma transfers Options

[blakkie]

I'm curious who allows these. They are optional, right? Our group always worked under the premese of not allowing them, so I always assumed they were optional.

If you do allow the trading is it at canon suggested rates? If not what rate?

If you don't allow one or the other, or either, why exactly?

[Vuron]

In general I tend to use Karma for Cash to represent the random luck breaks that burning karma might take the form of.

"Oh wow this dufflebag is full of certified credsticks!"

Cash for Karma I'm a bit more leery of as I don't really think sacrificing stuff on an altar to Mammon is particularly within the character of the game. Now I do tend to use some tutoring rules that help offset the cost of learning some things so to a degree there is some mechanism for cash to karma even if it's just reduced advancement costs. However direct transfers I'd tend to shy away from.

[Smiley]

We allow it, but with stipulations. The cost is 3D6x1000 per point of karma, rerolled for every point, up to a limit of 5 per run, and it doesn't count towards karma pool. I don't think anyone in our group has ever sold karma for cash, so it's never come up.

[Dawnshadow]

Sharaloth thought about allowing it, we decided we didn't need it though -- Street Sam wasn't getting any more upgrades, and it's a massively high karma campaign, though low pay.

[Charon]

I don't really care for a justification that explains cash/karma transfer between runs. I just let it happen. If a PC can come up with a good explanation, good for him. Might even be used in game. But I don't really care either way. It's just an accounting exercise on a PC sheet, it doesn't reall need to spill over into the game world.

[FrostyNSO]

The pay for our runs varies so greatly, that allowing it once might not be too bad, but down the road a little ways when we rake in a big score....and you know if you allow it once, the players will cry if you deny it later.

[Smiley]

Put a cap on the amount they're allowed to purchase.

[Capt. Dave]

We've never used it for years, but started recently now that we've hit 200 Karma.
Works out pretty well so far, as we use the rules Smiley listed above. 5 Karma per session helps a bit, but it's in trade of 40-60,000 nuyen and as it's only 5 per game session, doesn't dominate over actually running.

[Crimson Jack]

In our uber-character game (characters above 300 karma), I do not allow either of these. That would be problematic to deal with, as the GM. In this campaign we also have quite a few house rules.

However, I voted that I allow both because we've recently started up a new campaign with brand new characters. This campaign is all canon, no house rules, and we're playing with all of the optional rules. Gonna see how it works out. So far, no abuse (25 karma into it so far).

[Fortune]

I have no problems doing either. Each time a player wants to use it (either way), an reasonable explanation is required. Usually the trade is not for actual Karma or Cash, but for the end product purchased with either of these.

Of course, as was said earlier, Karma bought in this fashion never affects the Karma Pool.

[Pthgar]

We do 10,000 nuyen for one Karma point and vice versa (represents charitable donations or gambling respectivley.) There are a few rules.

1. You can only do one such transaction per month, so every time you make an exchange you have to pay your lifestyle cost. If two runs are placed within a month of each other, in game, then you can't have that Karma for the second run.

2. Karma earned this way does not add to your Karma Pool, Reputation, or anything except Good Karma available to raise stats or use for magic.

[Edward]

We allow both but I don’t think I ever saw somebody sell karma.

The descriptions we use for cash for karma are high prised instructors, (for attributes and skills) or expensive magical reagents (for initiating learning spells or other magical tasks). I dislike using things like charitable donations or sacrifices but some people use them

We pay 5,000-10,000 nuyen per point of karma (role GM mood) and there is a limit of 2 points per game month (new rule this campaign because all the magicals where putting most of there cash into karma)

I dislike the loose karma for a lucky break logic as well. If I as going to sell karma for cash (fat chance considering the number of magicals I play) I would probably describe it as finding a free spirit that would pay me for my karma however I loose karma and gain money as agreed rather than the other way around.

And of cause no affect on karma pool, only karma available to spend

Edward

[BishopMcQ]

My groups allow the transfer in both directions at 5k per karma. The limit is that you cannot buy more than half the awarded Karma. Additionally, the bought karma must be tracked separately as it doesn't count towards Karma Pool.

We've been using this system for about a year, and the only change we've seen in our games is fewer complaints. Now the characters who want more karma can get it, and those strapped for cash are fine as well. All in all, there are enough built in balances for SR3 that it hasn't created a problem.

[Swing Kid]

It really depends on the Karma/cash levels seen in any given campaign. The way I handle it depends on how far the campaign has gone. If we are running a game where the characters are pretty green, then I give Karma Points a lower street value, say 1 Karma point being equal to no more than 2-3000 Nuyen. It is important to then run the game where the players could honestly debate which is more valuable, 3000 :nuyen: , or a Karma Point. It will become pretty obvious to a good GM, in gameplay, which is more valuable at any given point, Karma or cash.
Later in the campaign, as the team begins developing their rep, I would announce to the players that Karma is now worth, say, 5000 :nuyen: , and so on, basing the Karma value (in Nuyen) off of the standards of wealth that the players are becoming accustomed to. If your team is getting 100,000 apiece for runs, then you could hardly stick with 5000 :nuyen: per Karma. The value of the Nuyen is simply worth less at that point. If the same team later finds themselves washed out and penniless, then the scale could change again, depending entirely on the situation.
As to figuring out how their Karma became cash, it could simply be tied into that character's downtime. Anything from side runs not actually played out, to moonlighting as security agents (very good security agents), to simple payoffs and bribes. As to how Karma comes from money, that is even easier. A GM and a player could make the agreement that the money simply becomes "unavailable" once spent, though the character himself might think he actually still "has" the money. For example, a character might invest the money, thinking he will make a big return on the money, while the player that runs him (and the GM that runs the game) knows that he will never see the money again, whether from future losses, Decker theft, or whatever. Hell, maybe the money is simply not ever pulled out in the game-life of the player. In any case, the money is simply no longer available to the player, even if the character does not know it.
Another thing. If rules for money-karma transfers is allowed, then the campaign should have a standard limit on time transfers. We use a limit of one Karma point traded per game week. The GMs of our campaign are also very good about not letting time simply "float by" just to make these transfers easier.
The best arguement against all of this is that it simply becomes a great big pain in the ass to keep up with, and not worth it (GM arguement). A good way to handle this is for GM's to only allow trades when the player takes the time to explain where the money went or came from before he allows the trade to take place.

[fistandantilus4....]

[Kagetenshi]

Oh hell no.

~J

[Luke Hardison]

I offer both. No one has ever offered to take either one. I don't know if that means that my exchange rate is bad or that my rewards are well balanced already ...

[lorthazar]

I allow both at 2500 nuyen a Karma point, but there are some mechanics. Normally training time is almost nonexistant. If you got two weeeks free you got the skill. If you are buying karma to raise a skill, attribute, or spell rating then I use the training rules based on the number of karma you bought. For bonding foci and summoning ally spirits I make it part of the costs associated and tack on 12 hours per karma point to the process.

[hahnsoo]

We use a ratio of 5,000 nuyen per Karma Point both ways (we used to do random, but not anymore... too much work and bookkeeping), with a limit of 3 Karma per session (which roughly covers 2 weeks of game time). In our current campaign, we have been so cash-poor (compared to lifestyle costs) that most of the Karma gets converted to cash. It has most recently paid off in a brand new shiny tilt-rotor attack helicopter (which took MONTHS of saving). The shaman is the only person who consistently buys Karma for Cash, and even then, she only does it if she can afford it above and beyond lifestyle costs. The professional level of the group is starting to pick up, and they are starting to get better payoffs, so this trend may reverse soon enough. But at one point, the decker/face had something like 37 Good Karma just sitting around doing jack and squat.

In previous games, the Karma for Cash/Cash for Karma thing varied depending on the campaign. For example, we played a campaign in Denver where all the characters were high school students/dropouts. In that case, a lot of Karma was spent to get cash to get cool cars, latest clothes, etc. In another alternate DocWagon campaign, Karma could be spent to get more resources for the DocWagon team. In our high powered game, I think about half of the cash was spent buying Karma points.

[CirclMastr]

I allow both, with stipulations that usually prevent anyone from making use of them.

Selling karma for cash is, in a sense, selling your soul. Maybe not your SOUL, since that would be Essence or something, but your life experience, your identity. After selling enough points (around 5 or so) you get hit with Amnesia. The more you sell, the more severe your Amnesia gets.

Buying karma with cash is the reverse. You're adding life experience to your own. But it's someone else's life, that they sold for money. After buying enough points (again, around 5 or so) you get hit with Flashbacks, featuring memories that are from someone else's life (or lives). The more you buy, the more frequently the flashbacks are triggered, until they start intruding on your dreams and everyday life.

[Edward]

[Critias]

I don't understand where people get the idea that cash-for-karma is some sort of mystical sacrifice, where you melt down a credstick on an altar to Cthulu or something.

You want to know a really easy way to picture cask for karma? College. Vocational classes. Practice at stuff, to exclusion of all else. Going to a self defense class. Taking martial art lessons.

It's all a matter of the GM communicating with a player and working out the details with them in a way that fits their game. I don't think anyone's ever said "you just throw a credstick away, then get better at pistols," or anything like that. It's not supposed to be quick fix that just happens for no reason -- role play it out a little bit. Hell, you could even use it as a plot hook for a couple runs ("Uh oh. Remember those couple of thou you spent on transportation to and from that fitness and survival course, and on tuition, last month? Turns out it's a militia/cult/bug spirit breeding ground! Good thing you brought your guns!").

I don't think the cash for karma (or karma for cash) rules are inherently broken, if the players and GM do their job, and find ways to make them work for a given game. If making people go nuts and sell their soul (or buy someone else's) is the way you want to work it, and it works for your game? Great. But make it work somehow.

Don't just toss them in there without thinking about it, then complain when your players abuse it ('cause you weren't paying attention).

[Cougaar]

Funny thing happened yesterday - I read this thread and voted for "neither allowed" because in the group I play in we don't use either option (result being that my chars either have too little cash but heaps of karma or exactly the opposite).

Then about 10 Minutes after voting my boyfriend (and the other main GM in our group) phoned me and asked me my opinion about allowing these options. Reason being his new char could do with some more karma and has too much money on his hands. Something isn't allowed until he has a problem with it not being allowed. GRRR!

I've found my own little ways of "exchanging" money&Karma:
My "too-little-money-too-much-karma"-char has invested that karma to diversify her knowledge and abilities and is actively looking for better paying runs. If the GM comes up with a run where the pay isn't good enough, my char doesn't do that run.
The "too-little-karma-too-much-money"-char has gone on holiday. She's actively looking for new experiances and people. I've talked to my GM that I want to play this out and so far it's been.. erm.. interesting. ;)

One could say that by roleplaying the chars I've exchanged money&Karma.. I've spent time and energy to make that exchange happen - I don't need any rules about exchange rates or justification. I just looked at my chars and thought about how they feel about themselves.

[Ezra]

Buying karma with cash is allowed in my game, but on the following conditions.
- only during character creation.
- 25000 per karma point.
(And if they don't like it, they can lump it.) :D

[FrostyNSO]

Critias has some good stuff.

It's a little more difficult to justify when doing karma for cash though. I don't think I would ever say "You've been helping out some buddies so they gave you loads of cash."

I'd probably ask the person what they need the money for and then have them spend the karma by helping a buddy (either with training, installing a security system, etc...any sort of downtime thing) in exchange for what they were looking for, since he "happens to have one laying around" or might be able to find him one.