 Elemental manipulations, That bit you in the hoop |
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 Apr 16 2005, 08:35 AM
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#26
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Uncle Fisty  Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928  |
Anywho , sent off a 'SR question' to the ShadowFAQ hotline for an "official" answer. Also included : do you check seperatley for each item (Edward's example of checking for each grenade), would you do it by the highest (easier to light clother on fire), or in groups (1 check for all grenades, 1 for all ammo, etc)?
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Apr 16 2005, 08:39 AM
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#27
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I believe it's each and every single thing that is vulnerable to such secondary effects. In practice, I and other GMs in my group have simply done ammunition (as one lump, unless the dude was carrying a belt of assault cannon ammo or something ridiculous), grenades (edit: One roll for each grenade), then armor/clothing, in that order, with other effects at the GM's discretion. |
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Apr 16 2005, 02:04 PM
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#28
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Logic would say that there is a higher chance of at least one grenade going of if you fireball 20 grenades than if you fireball 2, however reading some sections of the rules you can argue that logic has no place in SR.
When you have LOTS of explosives and considering the chance of sympathetic explosions we have a tendency to just say they all blow, the first time we bothered to roll for all 12 grenades we decided it took to long and they all did detonate. Edward |
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Apr 16 2005, 02:41 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. The karma you spent on learning Enhanced Aim could always have been spent learning something else instead, and the sustaining focus or whatever used to sustain it could've been used to sustain that spell. Unless you're wiz enough to learn and be able to sustain every spell in the book, you'll always be making a sacrifice, for a spell that really isn't that good to begin with. |
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Apr 16 2005, 02:55 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
Woot, round 2!
We've always went with OR 8, since nothing worth blowing up really falls under the low-tech manufactured category.
EMs can still inflict secondary effects even if you stage it down to nothing, so it's definitely the base damage that's taken into account, not the effective damage. |
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Apr 16 2005, 04:14 PM
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#31
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think you are underestimating the considerable impact the reduction of target numbers has on Shadowrun. Enhance Aim isn't a universally "bad spell", it's a spell you have to put a lot of resources into (Sorcery Dice, Elemental/Totem Assistance, etc.) to squeeze the cheese out of (compare to Manabolting a Willpower 6 person), but even two successes means a -1 to target numbers for all ranged attacks. It's an ideal candidate for Ritual Magic because ritual materials are dirt cheap for detection spells and it's one of those spells that you would want to prepare beforehand anyway (when you can soak the drain and focus all of your dice on casting the spell). For guns, this isn't a big deal because it doesn't stack with most of the usual gun combat bonuses and the range is limited (you can always get extended range, I guess). For elemental manipulations, it's a huge difference, because there's simply no other way to lower target numbers for those spells. Another good candidate for Enhance Aim is throwing weapons (which, unless you've implemented SmartBall technology for your game, cannot be modified in any other way other than "Take Aim"). |
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Apr 16 2005, 04:25 PM
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#32
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
This is definitely debatable. That would put grenades and ammunition on par with High Tech Electronic equipment. The range between Low Tech Objects/Materials (5) and High Tech Objects/Materials (8) is so wide that it could be anything within that range. I'm prone to think that propellant/explosives is no more complicated than simple plastics (5), but I don't think it's as complicated as a average pocket secretary or other electronics (8). 6 sounds reasonable, simply because a production-line gun is a 7 (SOTA:2064), most of which have digital displays and electronics built into the design. Regardless, if you make it an 8, that makes the roll 9 or above on 2d6, for every explosive item on a person. Unless the GM is a really (un)lucky roller, it is very likely that something is going to cook off, especially if there is more than one person in the radius. |
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Apr 16 2005, 04:26 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
Okay, so you believe that Enhanced Aim is a useful spell. I disagree. Regardless, my original point still stands.
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Apr 16 2005, 04:28 PM
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#34
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
It helps that I'm currently playing a Gunslinger Magician's Way adept who has cheesed out the spell. :) When you've seen how cheesy it can get, it's easier to believe that it's a useful spell. |
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Apr 16 2005, 04:40 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
Alloys are specifically listed in the Object Resistance table to be an 8.
Unless that person is halfway intelligent and carries his ammunition in fire/electricity resistant containers, or under armor specifically designed to negate such attacks. There's also the easily overlooked, but nonetheless important consideration that exploding ammo and grenades don't differentiate between the target and the spellcaster.
As you've already said, a smartlink is far superior to Enhanced Aim when dealing with firearms, so I don't think the cheesiness is much of a problem in that respect. :) This post has been edited by kackling kactuar: Apr 16 2005, 04:46 PM |
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Apr 16 2005, 04:51 PM
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#36
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Explosives are not alloys. Alloys are specifically combinations of metals, and I think they mean Alloys to be complex high-tech alloys like plasteel (otherwise, the production-line gun and modern katana would not have an OR of 7, and the hand-crafted knife made of steel would not have an OR of 5). Again, it's debatable.
And if you can show me the reference to fire/electricity resistant containers, I'll gladly buy a few. :) Just kidding. Seriously, I don't think that's a practical idea at all. For storage, sure, but for combat, it would take a Complex action to get the grenade/ammo out of the sealed container, and a Simple Action to ready it. That's one action too many... the grenades would be worn on a belt or some other easily accessible storage location, not a special fire/electricity-sealed container. I do think that you should add heat/electricity resistance from the armor to the OR roll. This also doesn't take into consideration the ammunition already in the gun (which cannot be made fireproof).
Yeah, he can't use a smartlink because he fires them akimbo and we don't use those house rules for adding any visual bonuses (like Smartlink, Opt Mag, and Laser sights) to dual-wielding pistols. It's one of the few ways to lower target numbers in that situation (Aptitude and Attunement are the others). As a side benefit, the Enhance Aim is helpful for his throwing skill and his Elemental Manipulations as well.
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Apr 16 2005, 05:03 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
Alloys are alloys. Steel is an alloy. I don't know where you're getting those numbers from (probably from a book I don't have), but if they're true, then they directly contradict what's stated in the core book.
An extra complex action to guarantee that you don't get killed off by your own equipment is definitely not one too many. Even if you wear it on a belt, you can still wear an armored jacket or something over it.
In which case you'll only get a single check for secondary effects, not the many that you've described before. The ammo inside a gun also doesn't qualify as "worn material," so, by the book, it doesn't do any damage to you even if it blows up.
Ew, pistols! |
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Apr 16 2005, 05:18 PM
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#38
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
SOTA:2064, in case you are interested.
Actually, by the book, exploding ammo in your handgun DOES do damage to you, as indicated under the rules for Explosive ammo (which are pretty much identical to the exploding ammo rules for EMs).
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Apr 16 2005, 11:25 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
As I said. :)
Not everyone uses Explosive ammo, and even if they did, exploding ammunition rules for EMs only take into consideration worn equipment. You can use a house rule to link the two together, which is what I would do, but it'll still be a bit less deadly than if the ammo you're wearing explodes on you, and notably less deadly than a 6D manabolt. |
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Apr 17 2005, 05:07 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
It doesn't have to be explosive ammo - any ammo, when cooked off, is considered a point blank weapon hit. Armor does not reduce this damage. (CC, page 98). So that spare clip of regular Predator ammo you're carrying does 9M damage to you when it cooks off, armor does nothing to reduce this damage, (you can add Combat pool to your body for the purpose of resisting the damage). But chances are you already used some or all of it to resist the damage from the spell. Some Elemental Spells also have Tertiary effects, not just secondary. Toxic Wave adds +4 to all TN for anyone in the Area Effect for the rest of the Combat Turn, and the affected area is considered Trecherous Ground for the rest of the Combat Turn. (aka Difficult Ground), increasing TNs for Ranged Combat for characters walking (adds +1) and characters running (+2). Lightning/Ball Lightning - Any Character with Cyber who takes a wound from these, at *least* one piece of Cyber is automatically damaged... and more than one piece can be affected. MM - 127. Smoke Cloud adds +4 to all TNs in affected area for the rest for the Combat Turn (MITS) Thunderclap - Causes Stun Damage, Characters must resist Knockdown, and are deafened for one combat turn for every two successes rolled on the spell. (MITS) And if you use the spell design rules for Ice, Metal, Sand, Water, you get other lovely secondary effects.... such as vehicals must make an immedate Crash Test if they are caught in an Ice Area Effect. (MITS) So a simple Force 4 sustaining focus for Enhance Aim, (Extended Sense) means your TNs are 2, Having some Expendable Spell Foci, and Totem advantages for Manipulation spells make for a nasty combination. I've played a Sky Father Shaman(+2 to all Detection and Manipulation Spells), with several area effect spells, and a force 1 power focus. I didn't use elementals spells often, but if the situation called for it, like covering a retreat in firefight, they were awesome. You may not care for the Enhance Aim spell, and prefer Stun/Mana/Powerbolt spells, but some of us know how to use EA and elemental Manipulations to great effect. They're useless for sneak or infiltration and stealth, but work wonders when you don't care how much noise you make. |
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Apr 17 2005, 06:43 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
Wrong. Read the passage again. Any ammo that you're wearing is considered a point blank weapon hit. I believe I've already mentioned that twice. ;)
Most of these effects can be, with a little creativity, replicated by an assortment of other spells in the book. And as a bonus, these alternative spells are not nearly as easy to absorb by spell defense since you can cast them at a higher force without worrying about getting your ass kicked by the drain. Yay for you if you enjoy using elemental manipulations in your game - don't let me rain on your parade. Like I said, they're definitely not worthless. It's just that I, and my group as a whole, didn't find the utility that they provide preferable to what can be done with spells that are much more drain-efficient to cast. :) |
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Apr 17 2005, 07:15 PM
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#42
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
I have found elemental manipulations have saved our tails many times.
One run had us out in a field near an installation we had to protect. We had a stock SR2 rigger as one of the NPCs...the one with the AVMs on the car and not being afraid to use it. Luckily we were far enough away, and the fireball the mage tossed, while it didn't hurt the car very much...sort of cooked off the AVMs. Byebye car, byebye major thread. We've melted stuff to sludge with Toxic Wave...Panther cannon on the Azzie guard or no, toxic wave=no more armor, bye bye cannon. And one overlooked one is Nova...light and heat based...works very nicely against people with no flare comp. VERY nicely. Not to mention all the ammo in the area, and it's physical, so it tends to disrupt camera imaging as well... |
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Apr 18 2005, 02:37 AM
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#43
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Can somebody refresh my memory on the damage you tae when ammunition cooks of.
Consider the character with a clip for an SMG in his back pocket (we will only consider this clip) An SMG clip has variable capacity but we will say it has 30 rounds in it as this is something that can be known. The weapon damage code however varies between 7M for the powerful ones and 6L for the HV model. What would be the damage code if for some reason I only had one round in the pocket? Edward |
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Apr 18 2005, 03:11 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
I'd base it on the weapon you use.
If you don't use an SMG, I'd pick a number from the book. Either way, you're probably going to have bandages on your ass for a week. :D As for the difference between one round, and one 30-round clip, they don't specify. I'd houserule by staging the damage by one level, and the power by one for every 10 rounds. So for a 30-round clip, basing it on a weapon that does 6L, you'd end up with a 9D to roll off. |
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Apr 18 2005, 03:16 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
What I'd like to see are characters running around with one round clips because they're too cheap ass to purchase nonconductive, flame-retardant armor.
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Apr 18 2005, 03:52 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
Hey, if they can't afford to fill the rest of the clip, what makes you think they can afford to purchase nonconductive, flame-retardant armor? :eek: |
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Apr 18 2005, 04:03 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
It's not that they can't afford to fill the clip. It's that they're too scared to do it for fear of sucking an EM and subsequently getting shot to pieces with their own ammo. :D
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Apr 18 2005, 04:07 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
Good one! LOL :rotfl:
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Apr 18 2005, 04:17 AM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What I'd like to see are less spells which have been specifically designed to heat up propellants. Either that, or propellants for small arms which come even close to being as stable as the ones we have IRL. |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:45 AM
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#50
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I know it's a little late, but this is the response I got from ShadowFAQ in case anyone was still wondering.
"Both quotes mean the Damage Level selected by the spellcaster, not the final damage done to a target. Even if the target takes no damage, the secondary affects can still occur if the Damage Level selected for the Spell is Moderate or above and the appropriate dice roll is made. See SR3 page 183, left column, 2nd paragraph from the bottom. A character can kill everyone in a room, without setting it on fire, by casting a light-damage fireball with lots of successes. Similarly a Fireball where the caster chooses Deadly Damage might destroy much of the room, even if all the characters in the room resist the spell completely. Yes, it is easy to interpret that the quotes mean different things -- but they do not. Regarding rolling separately for each item, the GM is invited to simplify it as much as he wishes. For example, with 40 grenades, I might roll for them in groups of 5. That way I only need 8 rolls to handle 40 grenades. In practice most GMs won't be willing to roll for each individual item in the room. If there is a life-or-death risk to a characer depending upon the roll, I will always roll separately for each important item. " On a side note, I had a PC that got engufled by a fire elemental while weariing a minigun w/EX ammo (well, to be fair, he saw it coming at him, hit the quick-drop swith on his gyromount, and threw the thing at the elemental. Had about 800 rounds of EX ammo. How would you do ammo? I couldn't think of anything better, so I figured base damage was 7S for a minigun, I dropped it to moderate because he had a few meters of throwing/ running, and then broke the rounds down by dividing it down by ten. So he resisted 7M, no armor, about 80 times. I divided the rolls between each player, watched all their rolls. All his combat pool, 22 points of karma, and most of the team karma (and about 20 minutes later), he only had 5 boxes of damage! Body is 11 BTW. Thoughts? |
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