Downturn Magic, Just some thoughts Options

[frostPDP]

Well, going over much of the game plot and its basises it seems that Magic had to exist on some if not many levels during our time, right now. So yeah, this might sound crazy but bear with me, be fair, and all that. It's 3:40 in the morning and I'm stuck in Insomnialand.

1: Spontaneous Combustion. Granted I don't know too too much about it, but isn't it possible that this was a manifestation of magic?

2: Rasputin. The sombitch took how much to kill?

3: Tunguska: Also Russian, go figure. To top it off, Orchalicum was found there during the Year of the Comet. Strange, no?

4: Hitler (okay, so this is more of a passing statement, but bear with me): It certainly seemed like the fool had too much luck to be any good. He also had a documented occult interest as well as an incredible influence over the people of Nazi Germany, many of whom claimed that they felt as if they were waking from a dream when Hitler died. Not to mention that old tale about a coven of British Wiccans being dead the same day. But I'd focus on the fact that the jackass survived I-don't-know-how-many assassination attempts, including one where a bomb went off a few feet from him and did nothing but scratch him.

5: Immortal Elves continued to exist, and it appears places like Blood Wood and various other religious rites continued to exist.

6: Jesus. M'Man walked on water (levitated), healed the sick, and a whole bunch of other stuff during the height of the Downcycle. You tell me (Not to mention all this "Passion" mumbo-jumbo which undoubtedly could have something to do with it.)

8: Ghosts. 'Nuff said.

So in summary, my theories on what this means?

1: The mana level in the world isn't the only reason why people awakened. Judging from magical groups which have apparently operated during the whole time, some people were born capable of channeling magic, and the Awakening just made it active?

2: Assuming #1 holds true, the nature of Magic has become one which is more widespread, not necessarily "there" rather than "not," and that the people who did have Magic before 2011 were only further powered by the Awakening, not necessarily first awoken.

3: Essence is the spirit, the soul, and is undeniably linked to Magic. That means Essence makes Magic work. Plain and simple.

4: Taking 1 and 2, and especially three, anyone who is not currently awakened is most likely not awakened may well become awakened if they are exposed to enough magic. (SURGE, the Orchalicum stuff during Year of the Comet, and how Cyberzombies become dual-natured.)

So the final idea is, I'm braindead :) Night night.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Harley took credit for #3, but I don't remember which book it was in.

[Dawnshadow]

Makes sense to me.

You can also toss in a lot of the miracles recorded for Christianity -- I forget where, but there's an island that you can be healed, for one.

If anything, I would compare the cycles of magic to a huge resevoir. Nearly empty during the downcycle, but still having some there, starting to fill up before the awakening and for the first portion.. gets full, stays full for a while, and then starts to drain out near the last part, becoming empty for the next downcycle -- even then, having a little bit though.

[frostPDP]

Well, and perhaps this is part of my own religious belief, every living being has a spirit. Especially in SR (which is remarkably like my own beliefs) essence is linked to magic bigtime.

To try to stem off my own beliefs and move to something more novelstyle, Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series has a remarkably similar-to-SR magic system, at least when it comes to a single person casting spells without backup from ambient energies (though background count/the like can certainly mimic this.) In fact, Mercedes Lackey's series has somewhat "flatlined' Magic so its even more like down-turn stuff. Its still there, and there's still hints of power around ancient Leylines, but no way no how did it do much.

So it seems to me that any person can be awakened, it would just take a riddiculous amount of power (hint hint, astral swells or whatever they are...Also, cyberzombies) to do so. In the Harlequin (yes, its ancient stuff) adventure where he goes and duels Ehran, Harlequin has the player characters who are Mundane hum as close to in tune as possible. If Mundanes were completely void of Magic, why was this necessary?

Furthermore, if Magicians need Karma to bond to foci and free spirits use it to use powers, what about the mundane who gets a bunch of Karma? Clearly Karma has some magical means, and perhaps it could "unlock" whatever it is that blocks it? In Mercedes Lackey terms, enough Karma could (and hopefully not in as painful a way) open the magic channels much as an extreme backlash of magic did to Vanyel Ashkevron. Granted, it would have to be nearly-killing for someone to go from unawakened to most-powerful-man-alive, but on a smaller scale with some guidance it seems fully possible that a mundane could first Aspect himself (maybe choose one power, sorcery or conjuring and one element or something, so that elemental sorcery becomes it.). Then he could move to something else? Or just one magic point at a time, just like (and with identical cost to) initiation.

Of course, essence-damage already done (I.E. that 5 essence Wired 3? Man, awakening you'll be a biotch.) will apply as if normal magic loss, so if you initiate to grade -3 (or rather, 3 grades of initiation as a mundane), but have 5 essence loss, you either have to Geasa or cast nothing. Then again, Geasa might be the only way for a mundane to use power to begin with.

And that island you're thinking of; Lourdes, perhaps?

Furthermore, here's another downturn example - Napoleon supposedly stayed in the Sacred Chamber (it has a name, I dun know if this is it, but you get the hint) of the Pyramids during his brief stay in Egypt. He spent the night alone, and the next day came out. When his men asked what happened, what he'd seen, he responded "You wouldn't believe me if I told you."

Did he maybe see the Fourth (or Sixth, for that matter) World?

[hermit]

[hahnsoo]

[Dawnshadow]

If you stop and think about it.. a mage on the down-turn would probably be visibly as 'luck'. Or, quite possibly, sixth senses.. worried, and spontaniously form a watcher spirit -- accounting for suddenly knowing there's someone following you. Or sudden moments of clarity when in serious trouble in a military engagement.. and you hit everything you aim at. Or when you're in an accident, take a hit and walk away with little damage, like something blunted the force as it hit you..

Or, adepts.. sudden surges of strength, speed when you most need it -- granny with the grandbaby in the flipped car, for instance.

[frostPDP]

I said possibility. Keep in mind its an idea, not a fact of SR Canon :)

And yeah, I'm a history major (Junior, Adelphi University) with a lot of focus on WW2. I know Hitler didn't lead the entire country by himself. Nobody does, ever. Simple as that, I figured we had anticipated this fact. Goering as an occultist was probably just as bad. Lets just keep in mind, Hitler was a bum until the he found (and dismissed, at the start of things) the Nazis. Then he became the SOB we know today. Relating it to Shadowrun terms, Hitler didn't have to be a Downcycle mage - Goering might have been (I'm willing to bet that being Awakened runs in the blood) or any one of them. Hitler might have been the Great Puppet, not Great Dictator. (I know if I were a Mage who could only work a few spells with high expense, I wouldn't want to be subject to 64, you said, assassination attempts.) I did, however, draw much of my stuff on a book called "Hitler and the Occult," which includes the idea of his searching for the Longunis Lance. (can't remember who its by, I only borrowed it.)

As for the others you mention, why not? Not that I think any of them (Alexander the Great as a possible exception) could have been, but why not? And why, if they weren't Awakened to some extent, could they not have had the aid of some form of Magic? Alexander conquered an unheard of amount of land in such a short time it boggles the mind, especially considering the ravaged state of his power base (Greece after the Pelaponesian, which I can't spell, wars was a mess, and Macedonia was not all-powerful by itself), so why couldn't he have had a general who also happened to have a little edge by way of mind-links or illusions?

After all, there are plenty of tales (Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, standard Brit-Lit stuff) of people encountering powerful beasts and demons and fighting against them in epic battles. Stumble onto a Dragon's lair and it wakes up, albiet not nearly as powerful as up-cycle, and poof. We gots a problem.

So yeah, again; why not? Not that I terribly care, but its curious to me to see why its impossible rather than a remote possibility.

-Edit-
Another one: I recall a history teacher mentioning how, during the Seven Years War (French-Indian to us Americans) George Washington was shot about 17 times, both by bullets and arrows, and all deflected. Also, recall the relatively miraculous fog which hid him from, Pope's was it? Well, whoever's army during the Revolution. If you take both those stories into SR terms, either some diety has George W's (No, not THAT George ;) ) back BIGTIME or he was downcycle, too.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[frostPDP]

Austere, that makes perfect sense. If you accept that Magic doesn't exist, well then none of it has anything more than a mundane background and SR is complete fantasy. If you contextualize yourself as an SR character looking back (as I tend to do when considering possible plot arcs, etc.) then you have to sit back and go "...Well, 60 years ago we'd have said this was impossible, but now we know Magic wasn't dead, just hibernating. Hmmm, coincidence? Luck?"

That's how I see it as, anyhow. Real-life stuff (Like a Mayan doomsday prophecy) was taken into account to make SR, so you naturally have to accept anything that fits (Including, of course, the historical fiction of it all, such as the Shiawese decision. Which we know didn't happen.) without causing some paradox that makes us all go pop in a probably-painful way.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Oh yes, it definitely becomes more interesting if you think about it from the perspective of Joe Average in 2070. That's just not something that comes naturally to me (pretending to be ignorant, that is).

[frostPDP]

Pretend ignorance is funny! Too bad I'm not a pretender :(

Yeah. I also wonder about Aliens in SR. No joke, like...We already know from Dunkie's Will that there's some jazz goin' on on Mars. Also, Atlantis was, if memory serves (gonna have to wing it here) described as a place where the Sky met the Earth. I thought I read this in The Ancient Files, could be wrong. Correct me please.

I can only think of one place where the stone and sky meet - The moon. Or another planet, but the Moon is "ours" while Mars is itself, no?

If it matters, I always love to consider "Dream-plots." Going after some ancient relic of Nazi Germany (NOT the Lance, that's over-done. See Constantine, a great movie, for such a use) or finding out that Alexander the Great didn't die, he vanished. And he's still alive...Or some kind of plot.

Not to mention I'm just severely interested because I have no life :)

[Ancient History]

[frostPDP]

Well, glad I put that disclaimer there :) I was looking through the Annotated will again, but I can't remember where I read it then. Maybe my head is just making stuff up. Thanks for clearing it up. *fears the wrath of the Ancient one*

[Bane]

[Cynic project]

[frostPDP]

Alllright, I don't think its fair to call someone narrow-minded within this context. Especially when I'm not a Christian. (Perhaps you have some issues you need to work out with that religion and temple-burning?)

Jesus was the example that I felt was most historically prevalent (1/6th of the world is Christian, moreso if my math is right.) - I do not know, nor do I care to get into, all of the myriad of religious leaders who had and claimed to have had supernatural powers, from Buddha's complete enlightenment to various Oracles of Greco-Roman Gods/Goddesses to Japanese Mikos to African libation-pourers of various sects to the Mayans and their prophecy which sparked the entire game of Shadowrun as we know it.

I propose an idea, something for people to think on. Of course much of it is easily explained in the real world. I would hope, in fact, that some of the people who might be said to be "awakened" in history weren't, 'cuz they're the bad type of people. Some you almost wish were, like George Washington. The point is, when you suspend disbelief to say "Magic was just sleeping," its not a terrible stretch to say "But in some places it woke up to get a midnight snack."

If it makes no sense, feel free to say so and explain why. In all liklihood, I could agree with you. These are ideas, things I would hope a GM picks up on and says "Hmm, interesting story arc, maybe there was a relic that caused...." This isn't an attack against anyone's religious beliefs, and if you interpret it as such perhaps Shadowrun, a game based on Mayan religious calendars and practices, is not for you?

[Shanshu Freeman]

isn't the idea that powerful enough magic users can tap into even extremely low mana levels, with great effort?

[Tanka]

Idea 4:
I forget where it said this, but Alachia was Eva Braun. No wonder he survived so much, neh?

Summary 3:
Or Magic is what makes Essence work. I think it mentioned somewhere about cyberware not working until after the Awakening, which could imply that Essence relies on Magic.

[frostPDP]

Tanka, that would be verry interesting.

Cyberware needing the awakening? Odd, but we already -have- cyberware, sort of. There are prosthetic limbs which work to some extent. I think.

But Sanshu is hardcore right.

[Tanka]

We have prosthetic limbs which do not convey heat, cold, soft or hard. There's a difference between a prosthetic limb and a cyberlimb.

And we have very, very limited cyberware. Nothing in comparison to what Shadowrun has (obviously).

[Shanshu Freeman]

[fistandantilus4....]

[Shanshu Freeman]

[fistandantilus4....]

during the down cycles, the immortal elves were still able to use magic