 audun's ideas for an overhaul of SR magic, flexibility, consistency and magic |
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 Apr 21 2005, 02:05 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482  |
if thats what you character chooses to believe to explain his ability to channel mana, use magic, cast runes, read tea leaves, pull rabbits out of hats, and do all the other things that make him a mage, then so be it. Ok, he's following the path of the megalomaniac, but he's following a path. Just like if he chooses to believe that his powers all stem from the powers of his ancestors (and he casts all of his spells by stating that he commands in the name of his ancestors), that'd make him some form of aspected ancestor wizard. or say a woman gets 12 of her closest friends together and believes that by dancing naked under the full moon, that they will receive the powers of mahnon, that'd make them wicca. Hell you could even have some bizzaro kult that believed that an all mighty "god" sent his son to "die" for their sins, and that this some how makes them better than every one else, and the "miracles" that they do are just an extension of his will. what's being said here is that all mages, shamans, and to a lesser or greater extent, need a schtick to explain why their Mo Jo's. None of the explanations are more "right" or "wrong" than any other. at least that's the way i'd explain it. |
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Apr 21 2005, 02:05 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482 |
double post deleted due to what looked like a Mysql timeout
This post has been edited by golden1: Apr 21 2005, 02:06 PM |
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Apr 21 2005, 04:01 PM
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#28
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
The difficulty with saying that whatever you believe is how your magic works is that anybody can say
“my characters belief structure/understanding of magic/delusion includes no concept of learning spells, if I want to do it I can, there is no concept of drain the idea that you might feal week or tired after casting a spell confuses him and there is no chance of failure. My magic will always work and there is no defence, the same goes for my magic shield” This is not so unbelievable assuming the person was rased with no understanding of magic but magical talent. Say everything he learned about magic he learned of a 15 min trid show for kids in witch only the hero and bad guy had magic had magic nether showed any weakness and the only spell that didn’t have the desired effect was when the bad guy cast directly at the hero. (sounds to me like a typical kids show). Now the character still a child plays a game of being the hero not knowing he is awakened. He wants the rat he finds in the basement (filing in for a BBEG mook in his little drama) do explode, and it dose. With positive reinforcement like that within a few days he will be a powerful magic user with any spell he wants, no drain, an no casting or resistance tests required. Because he was not aware of the limitations to include them in his magical world view they where not included. By the time somebody tries to teach him otherwise he KNOWS these things are not true and probably considers magic users that face these limitations soft, lazy, weaklings. Clearly this is unbalanced but if magic is truly dependent only on the users understanding of how it works it is a logical path that could occur. Other possibilities include getting a engram manipulator, willpower reducing drugs and the mind probe and alter memory spells. I am shore a practising munchkin could find more, maybe even ones that would slip past a GMs guard. Edward |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 21 2005, 07:30 PM
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#29
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Guests |
You all do realize that Ellery's point is that the way it's described, if someone believed that they were Ultra-God of the Universe, that they would be Ultra-God of the Universe, and could manipulate time, space, energy, and the base component particles of the universe without suffering drain because the description is so open-ended that it makes such a character possible. |
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Apr 22 2005, 12:06 AM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482 |
ok. lets see if i can put this in a way that everyone (who's not a troll, and just trying to provoke a response) can understand.
The actual mechanics of using magic, is basically the same for everyone. they draw on ambient mana, shape it to their will, and point said spell in the correct direction. The effort that this takes for them is what we call drain. lets take that kid from the previous example. he has *no* idea of the actual mechanics involved. in fact he has no knowledge of what magic really is. he just knows that if he concentrates hard enough, large swarms of rats explode. he also learns pretty quickly that if he keeps doing it, he gets some really bad head aches. (in game terms, he's casting "slay rat", and has enough willpower an raw, untrained skill, to resist the drain (mostly) . now lets take the "Ultra-God of the universe" (UGA, from now on). his concept of the way reality works has been warped from working in a personalit suppression booth for too many years. the hard liquor that he consumed on a daily basis finaly rotted his last neuron, and when he was laid off, for failing to turn in his 17th consecutive monthly photocopier toner utilisation report (sales, marketing, and domestic accounts only), he finally went totaly off the deep end. he beleives that people should fall to their knees, and worship him, that women should beg him to father their children, and that his clothes should allways be purple with orange trim. Strangely he finds that all of these things start happening, and that the headaches he keeps getting go away after a few bottles of overproof rum. in game terms, this mage, following the path of insanity, is spontaniously casting mob mind, an area effect version of control thoughs, (that only effects members of the oposite sex) and a limited version of the fashion spell. he also has a geas that requires him to be Drunk. . The way the cannon rules, and back storey are written, state that the way an individual manifests magic, is directly related to the way they beleive magic should work. Therefore it's probably possible (unlikely, i'll admit) that you could take a shaman (and for no good reason i can think of right now, he follows, the wood pidgeon totum), plug him into an engram manipulator, and brain wash the poor slot in to beleiving that he was actually an hermetic mage, who's just completing his 2nd year of his Phd in thaumaturgey at MIT (which is why he doesnt know any spells that actually work right now). in therory, this should, if i'm reading cannon right, work. the individual in question has the required genetic pre-disposition, and has just been brainwashed into beleiving that that's the way magic works. so it does. What you have to remember is that the way magic works is basically the same for every one. they way they rationalise it is the "way" "path" or "totem". |
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Apr 22 2005, 06:57 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If it is the case that magic requires belief, but everyone draws from the same pool of magic (thus keeping their powers comparable), why are hermetic abilities and shamanic abilities different?
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Apr 22 2005, 07:35 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Do you mean: Why are the abilities of different magical traditions different, despite the fact that they are all (allegedly) governed by the same underlying magical laws? Not-entirely on-topic reply: [ Spoiler ] Belief influences a lot of things: it is generally accepted that belief/mindset is very important in how athletes perform, for example. That's not precisely an answer to your question, but it points in the right general direction: Magic is essentially an exclusively mental activity (casting a spell requires, essentially, only that the caster be conscious and capable of concentrating upon and directing the spell). Belief will therefore be likely to have a greater effect upon it than it does upon physical activities, where the physical circumstances, such as the state of the body and the laws of physics come into play. If you consider 'Willpower' and 'Charisma' as comprising such things as self-image and ego (or the degree to which the caster really believes he is the incarnation of celestial bad-assitude), then the fact that these attributes assist in dissipating drain jibes quite well with the 'belief' idea. However, 'belief' is still limited by a check: just because you or I believe a thing does not make it so. [Edit]
Except that Canon is a bit confusing on this issue: in one area it says that a Shaman does not choose his totem, which may indeed be something other than a psychological construct. In another, it states that magic is subject to belief. In the first SR novel (Never Deal with a Dragon), Sam Verner learns that he has a magical aptitude, and tries to study magic as a hermetic - something to which he should be well-suited. It turns out, however, that he can't really do anything decent studying magic the Hermetic 'Way', because he's a Shaman. He doesn't believe it, but that doesn't much change the fact. Face it: SR canon is self-contradictory. Trying to use it as the basis for an argument is just grounds for further argument (especially here on DS...) |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 22 2005, 03:36 PM
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#33
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Well, IC they can be as self-contradictory and "mysterious" as they want. However, for OOC game mechanics it would be in their best interest to settle on a description and be done with it.
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Apr 22 2005, 03:55 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
another salient question is, what happens when someone's beliefs change? that's always been my biggest problem with magic-requires-belief concepts: beliefs change, and magic doesn't. |
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Apr 22 2005, 04:57 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
To understand magic there has to be something there to understand in the first place. Everybody has an understanding, but it is an understanding of the same thing. Not understanding how it works is not an understanding, at least not one which would help you much.
This is not an understanding of magic. It doesn't explain WHY he can do magic or HOW to do it, which is where the understanding part comes in.
You're jumping trough heaps of conclusions here. The kids starts out with the limitation that he has no idea how to work magic. He only has the talent that allows him to learn it. The kid can't make the rat explode without any idea of how to do it. If he discovers a way to do it, he has practically learnt his first spell. He is then on his way to gain an understanding of magic. Only by understanding magic better is he able to overcome the limitation that he has no idea how to do anything. Having no idea of gravity doesn't make you fly, only by understanding gravity and others forces of nature you might create a plane. It's the same with magic. This is SR, not Mage:tA.
I never said that magic should ONLY be dependent on the users belief. Reading what I posted as such is pure pedantry. To take your example of the kid playing the hero beeing able to explode rats. Following what I proposed (the whole of it) here's how it could work. Simply thinking the rat to explode to won't work. Any how that's not what the kids does either. The kids mimics what the hero did to make the crook explode. Startled by the fact that the rats explode he tries to explode another rat. Then it doesn't work. Why? Because he now tries to explode a rat. He goes back to playing hero again and makes another crook explode. It's only when he mimics the hero exactly (gestures and talks) and pretends that the rat is a crook that he is able to explode rats. That's the spell. It seems to the kid that beeing a hero is very hard work as he now is completly exhausted (he suffered the drain). The kid has an extremly limited and narrow understanding of magic. It his own tradition, that of "TV Show Magic Hero". If he left is alone with his magic he will continue in this tradition and possibly learn more spells. He will all sorts of limitations due the way he explores magic, i.e. watches more TV and tries to copy the hero's acts. He has to pretend to be the hero to be able to do anything at all and has to keep himself within the framework of the TV show. Ruleswise he has to stick to a Way (be Hero) and he has a Geas of "Pretend to be hero with gestures and all". By SR4 rules he also only has a Magic of 1, beeing quite limited in his spellcasting. Though, the moment any adult discovers that he is able to explode rats he will probably get proper training. His Way is already stuck though and will be very difficult to get rid off. Growing older and wiser he might refine the Way to be less absurd, but he started out as a Hero and defined his relation to magic trough that. Straying from that will hamper his magic abilities. |
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Apr 22 2005, 06:02 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If your understanding has to be correct, in some sense, then why should all magical traditions be equal? Wouldn't some be so wrong as to not even work properly or at all?
In that case, then, shouldn't it be possible (if unwise, assuming you have a choice) to follow a magical tradition that hampered your power? |
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Apr 22 2005, 08:50 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
How correct your understanding are is reflected trough your stats. High Magic attribute and skills means your better at magic. Understanding it better is a large part of that. If you read my proposal the end result is that at a high enough level you can do everything. Reaching 2000 Karma you can summon every possible spirit, do any possible metamagic, visit any metaplane, etc. Like the Path of Righ do :| All magical traditions are hampered. They are hampered in different ways. By the rules I propose here you may follow a magical tradition that hampers you power, but for purposes of game balance beeing hampered costs less in build points or Karma. You may also break the limits (shed a geas, learn to summon another spirit group, etc). Of course, this means that the higher level magicans of different traditions will be more in agreement than those on lower level. That makes perfect sense, it is how things work. |
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Apr 22 2005, 08:52 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
Which is why understanding is a much better word than belief. Beliefs change, whereas understanding is developed. You can't change your understanding of something and leave something you already knows out. If you learn something new that goes contrary to your previous understanding, your new understanding can't leave your old insights out. You can't simply disbelieve the existance of your Totem, even if your perception of it changes. It has to be taken into account in some way. Whether it is a Jungian archetype manifesting trough mana, a projection of yourself or an actual separate entity, it is still there. It is a huge difference, but it still has the same effect. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 22 2005, 11:18 PM
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#39
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Guests |
What happens when your Totem stops believing in you?
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Apr 22 2005, 11:46 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482 |
Well, that depends on a few things. Firstly you have to come to a decision as to whether or not they actually exist. I.e., do you believe that the totems are real, and that's why people believe in them, or do the totems exist simply because a lot of people believe in them. Personally, I believe that the totems exist because enough people believe in them. But you could also take the other view.. that the totems were hanging around waiting for the mana level to get high enough for them to exert their "world views" on people. there is an argument that having "a totem stop believing in you" is actually caused by a belief that you've some how failed to live up to the expectations that you've made your self believe that the totem has for you. in most belief sets, there's usually a way of obtaining atonement.. I.e., a way of making up for what ever you’ve done wrong. The other view, I.e. that the totems are real, and that’s why so many people believe in them, having the totem stop beleiving in you would either mean that you’ve upset it some how, in which case, you either have to find out what you did wrong, or, you’re just plain old boned. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 23 2005, 12:19 AM
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#41
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So long as SR3, p. 182 has not been omitted or overwritten (wouldn't be the first time), Totems exist in SR as high-force spirits. It's probably why for over ten years if a shaman wasn't living up to a Totem's ideals, the Totem could yank magic points from them.
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Apr 23 2005, 11:29 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Audun, good work.
I would adore a magic system where the beliefs of the character shape their magic. You have done sterling work. For those that pick the hole, well my character believes he is god so he is, I will relate a true story of one of our players. "12 years ago on a clear and balmy night a young man was cycling home from a student party where he had comsumed too much halucigenic gin. Along the way he became convinced that he was, in fact, a god; he mearly had to wish to travel faster and he did, any question he desired the answer to he could answer for he was omnicogizant. By asking himself questions that he, himself knew the answers to he proved it to be true. Later on, after one sway to many he found himself laying across the bonnet (hood) of a parked car and front wheel of his bike was not quite as round as it should be. He sheepishly, but quickly peeled himself off the car for it would not look good for a god to have crashed even if they had at the time been contemplating which colour to create their next quasar in and brought forth light to inspect the wheel by performing the "Dance of the 10 steps". This, purely co-incidently, positioned him underneath a lamppost where after inspecting the wheel he rested to consider his next action. Almost at once the answer presented itself unto his magnificence, he could fly home! Clinging to the shirt-tails of this answer, came a useful nugget of self-awareness (for was he not onmicognizant) that though a god he may be, he was also quite clearly an inebriated god. He mulled this over and came to the conclusion that if he was drunk enough to buckle a wheel whilst travelling slowly on his bike, imagine the mess he could make of a house if he made a mistake taking the next left turn at speed. Being a benevolent god the effort expended in possible restituition would exceed the known effort required to walk home, he decided to walk home." At no time in his journey home did he contradict the powers of his godhood, nor those of RL. In Audun rules I do not see much that limits or hinders a character only the player who creates and roleplays the character. |
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Apr 23 2005, 11:34 AM
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#43
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Wow. That's a some ridiculous shit.
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Apr 23 2005, 11:35 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
True story though.
I believe that I am a great driver, didn't stop me from skidding on black ice into an oncoming car this winter past, which in turn hasn't dented my belief that I am a great driver; shit happens. |
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Apr 23 2005, 12:53 PM
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#45
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Botch just gave a key phrase I like.
“beliefs of the character shape their magic” Shape being the operative word. The spirits you summon and the rituals you use are formed by your understandings and beliefs. The net that you can achieve is fixed no matter what you think. The question is this. If I take a shaman and a hermetic mage and I throw each into a high powered engram manipulator, record the entire mental pattern for each one to disk and record to the other ones brain how will there magic now work. What about a level 5 initiate and a level 1 initiate. Or even a level 10 initiate blood mage and loyal servant of aztechnology and some street urchin with the potential for talent (this last experiment should be performed as a copy not a swap). Edward |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:06 PM
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#46
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Doesn't matter if it's "true" or not. It's based on the fact that whoever-it-is was full of mind altering chemical substances, that the omnipotent god-being understood he was inebriated (which is a limit on his power, isn't it?), understood he couldn't function properly (another limit on his omnipotence, huh?), etc, etc.
It's not a "true story" about a god. It's the drunken ravings of a jackass who doesn't know when to stop drinking, and it's a stretch to use that sort of justification for any sort of rules system. It's ridiculous. |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:11 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
My view and desire of a new system would fall like this. Case A A shaman and hermatic of equal power are to all intent and purpose body swapped. This would lead to no real change as I like to understand SR magic. Even communciation with their totem should be uneffected as it is the impact of the shaman's mentality upon the astral. Case B & C Differing levels of initiation. Does initiation have an effect directly upon the physical body? I feel it is a murky area, whether there is a black and white answer it is still in the shadows. Between levels 5 and 1, probably a bad-hair day feeling as things go. But my main feeling is that overall is that you have 6 awakened people saying a variation on "What the fu*k happened to my body?". |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:31 PM
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#48
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
As far as I know there is absolutely no physical effect from initiation. With the exception of certain tribes that undergo ritual scarification as part of the initiation ritual no medical examiner without magic could tell wether you had initiated.
That said no medical examiner without magic can tell the difference between a mundane and an awakened individual so that may not be the best way to judge unless you want loyal apprentice blood mage (uninitiated) to random urchin to produce a magically active individual I wouldn’t take that road. I can see the advertisements now. Magical talent downloaded into your head, just 100,000,000 nuyem, payment plans available Edward |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:41 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
You miss the point completely, just like people who post the crap argument about why you end up with a character who believes he is a uber-god, should have no restrictions or penalties and out-munch any munchkin that has come before. The man in question was truely convinced that he was the god that the munchkin wants in a modular "belief shapes" magic system. Nothing he did that evening invalidated his delusional beliefs of being a god nor conferred any power to break the rules of reality. It was a light-hearted example of how the rule contraints laid upon a player who is creating a character that is delusional (ie. believes they can do more than they are allowed to under the game mechanics) can be integrated and roleplayed. Whilst I'm about, just what sort of reply is... Wow. That's a some ridiculous shit. ...commentary on the story, disbelief as to its relevancy, or just an excellent example of gibberish? Yep, that's it, gibberish. Perhaps if you had been a little more understandable I might be able to engage in debate rather than mutual near-flaming. |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:43 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
With very, very small print explaining that there may be some personallity dysfunction. |
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