 audun's ideas for an overhaul of SR magic, flexibility, consistency and magic |
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 Apr 23 2005, 01:54 PM
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#51
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587  |
Don’t worry, nobody that goes threw with the procedure will sue us. Legal is jumping up and down but the tech assure me that the subjects will be well pleased with the outcome. Edward |
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Apr 23 2005, 02:05 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Although mana-channelling (aka magic) does to some extent appear to be dependant upon the body. So there'd probably be a cue of upset mundanes going to the doctor to find out what sort of FAB infection they'd picked up that's knocking out their magical ability.
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Apr 23 2005, 05:48 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Okay, now maybe we're getting somewhere.
If magic works the way you believe it works, there's a problem with people who have self-appointed themselves to godhood. If magic works the way you understand it to work, and you understand both shamanic and hermetic ideas, then you should be able to cast and learn both branches easily. Or you should go crazy, because the "understanding" is contradictory. Or you should both go crazy and learn both branches easily. But if belief (or understanding) only shapes magic, then you can ask: what are the limits of the shaping? The problem with having a generic set of rules that can handle pretty broad shaping--enough to encompass the differences between hermetic and shamanic traditions--is that you tend to lose traditions altogether. And Audun's existing rules actually don't allow very much shaping (+2 bonuses/penalties, maybe summon one spirit outside of a traditional group) when it comes to differences between traditions. So if I look at the rules he wrote, I don't get the impression that magic works the way the practitioners believe, and I don't even get the impression that practitioners' beliefs shape very much at all. Some specific comments about Audun's specific proposals: Astral sense is awfully useful for costing almost nothing. Redefining what skills do seems a fine idea; sorcery does a little too much as it is, for example. Making divination a separate skill is not a fine idea from a playability standpoint. The GM is not prescient, so it's hard to handle. As a metamagic, divination gets limited use. It should stay appropriately limited, I think, even if divinatory abilities are one of the most common things claimed by modern-day psychics and mystics and so on. I'm not sure you want to put detection spells into an assensing skill, since then your bullet barrier linked to detect bullet wouldn't work so terribly well. You already can get a lot of information from a good assensing test that you might otherwise use a detect spell for; they have different uses. Conjuring is a very powerful ability. Allowing it to become even more powerful by mixing shamanic and hermetic traditions is probably unwise. More details are needed here to assess whether it's balanced. I like the idea of more uses for ritual magic. I'm not sure that providing a bonus of one or two points really covers what I'd like to see, though, and certainly the difference between "simple" and "complex" rituals should be spelled out. It's unclear to me why centering is no longer a metamagic. I suppose without spell pool you need *something* to keep yourself from taking drain on every spell, so centering could be a way to do it. |
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Apr 23 2005, 06:39 PM
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#54
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm sorry. You're right. Some loser getting drunk and falling off his bike once is proof that thinking you're a god and then rationalizing limitations into place makes it so. You win. I'm convinced.
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Apr 23 2005, 08:45 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
Glad we're getting somewhere. The points of pedantry should be nearly cleared now. I suggested that magicians may learn both shamanic and hermetic magic (summon both Elementals and nature spirits). So if your understanding is good enough, you may do that. I don't think going crazy should be necessary, there are people who are able to have two thougths in their heads at the same time :)
Possibly. But the two main traditions in SR have very many sub-traditions. That these are sub-traditions doesn't make sense in any way. So, instead of two main traditons with lots of sub-traditions you have many traditions. Lots of individual traditions may be that you loose traditions all together, but I don't think it is much of a loss.
What about: - Spirits that fits better with your understanding or tradition (Mythic spirits for instance). - geasa on magical abilities (limits imposed by your understanding) Two more steps in the direction of understanding shaping magic. Do you want to go further?
Three pages and finally we're getting to what I actually proposed :cyber:
Probably. 3 BP may be better. But actual balancing of these rules are pointless as long as we don't know SR4 rules and can playtest them.
What do you think of the use of divination for detection uses, past and present? That was my main point to include. IMO divining the future should be very difficult, limiting it's use. It may be even a metamagic of Divination?
Good point. I thought of keeping Detection spells for Enchanting only, but it would probably be better to keep them as is. Nothing wrong with having two ways of getting the same result.
I thought about having one conjuring skill for each spirit group, but that doesn't fit well with current rules (f.i. Phoenix shamans are able to conjure Spirits of the Fire and Nature Spirits already). But some balancing is needed. A possibility is that your current conjuring skill is treated as specialization of the current spirit group at the current rating. The new spirit group is a specialization at half your current rating. For banishing and other conjuring uses
Difference is that they take respectively a Simple action and Complex action to perform. What else need to be spelled out?
More a matter of taste. I dislike the idea of magic beeing a pure act of mind, I think it should involve actual rituals. I think that's a basic aspect of magic and it shouldn't be limited to Initiates only. Centering as proposed is much weaker, and not as stupid (no dancing, singing or chanting in less than a second). |
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Apr 23 2005, 09:25 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Mythic spirits just open up another tradition. More traditions that are viable isn't the same thing as having belief shape magic--there are just more viable things to believe, or more techniques to understand. Geasa can be rationalized any number of ways, with limited understanding being just one such way. So I don't think that adds much. It adds a little, but not much.
That could work, although I'm still not sure it should be a first-class skill. The problem is that these uses of divination step rather directly on the toes of astral scouts and hackers. Traditionally, at least, a big part of a decker's job has been to find out what is going on now, and what has happened in the past. Also, it isn't entirely consistent with the ultra-powerful magicians of the world (immortal elves, dragons, free spirits, etc.) being surprised in SR fiction. I think magic with a strong information-gathering component is fine. But I think it is also fine without, and in SR, I'd need more convincing that it needs to be included. In general, I think divination of past and present, as well as divination of the future, should probably be difficult.
Well, that's okay, but pretty bland. I was hoping for some short-duration rituals (lasting minutes rather than hours) and such. Otherwise, this is basically the same thing as aiming. Not that I mind--I think it's a good idea to have a comparable mechanic for careful spellcasting--but the in-game effects hardly need to be explained as something ritualistic for something so short.
Well, I don't mind if magic is a pure act of mind, and I don't think mental rituals are any less deserving of the title than physical rituals. I guess I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that "every second die used takes a full turn of attention". Does this mean that if your centering skill is 8, it takes you 4 turns to use your full skill, in preparation for casting? This would limit centering to use outside of combat situations, since combat in SR has, at least historically, been fast. So far, magicians have been able to sort-of keep up.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 23 2005, 10:11 PM
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#57
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Guests |
Wow. Well, I'm convinced. If you're going to call someone on being a jackass, it's probably a good idea to not be one yourself in the same post. Just a thought, anyway. |
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Apr 24 2005, 12:38 AM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482 |
ya know, the way this argumentis going, imayhave to write this up as an adventure. a character who's a reasonably powerfull, but delusional hermetic, who's suffering from a god complex, hires the runners to find out why his disciples nolonger recognise him.
exploring the poor slotshome,theyfind that his disciples (actually the other members of his astral contact group) are still astrally contacting with some one who happens tohave all the correct memories and skills, but who's aura is a little "off". turns out that one of the other members got jelous of his position, and hired some one to do the afforementioned full brain-swap-mojo. one of them took, the other did not. the insaine guy is actually the disaffected leutenant-in-leaders body, who's been kicked out of the group for pulling the stunt, and gone insaineas a brucey bonus. hillarity ensues |
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Apr 24 2005, 12:45 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I don't think technology or magic has reached the point where full-brain swaps can be done.
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Apr 24 2005, 03:37 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
re: divining, and its rarity.
divining should work like centering that you do ahead of time. instead of forcing the GM to give the player specific information, just allow the player to get bonus dice that can (and must) be used over the next few days. these dice represent his foreknowledge--insights that the character can't quite put together into a specific image of the future, but which occasionally fall into place at just the right time, allowing him to duck when he shouldn't have known to duck, or clip the blue wire when the bomb disposal expert on the radio is mistakenly telling him to clip the red, etcetera. when it's important to the plot? sure, the GM can let slip a piece of vital info. but most of the time, it should just be an abstract bonus. |
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Apr 24 2005, 05:52 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
That idea had occurred to me, but it makes divination rather mudane and a little boring. I was hoping for a more mysterious feeling to it.
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Apr 24 2005, 02:28 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
A matter of wording maybe. More traditions does IMO imply that there are more possible ways of understanding. But unless you think it should go further than that, let's leave it for now (at least in this thread).
Not much, agreed. Just many little bits in that direction, making it more a part of the rules.
It still has a cost as an ability (5BP + skill). As metamagics can be bought at character creation*, leaving it as metamagic makes no difference. The reason I used it as a basic ability was that unlike metamagics, it doesn't build upon any previous abilities. I'd like metamagic to be "advanced techniques" leaving everything else as basic techniques. If it doesn't build upon any of the others, it's a basic technique no matter how difficult it is. To address your concerns, I have two suggestions. One is simply to make it more costly (10BP instead of 5). The other is the one I already suggested, make the answers untrustworthy. The more successes above the treshold, the less vague the information you get, but the trusthworthiness is always in doubt. It's like a rumour, you still have to check it to verify the information. * That could of course be an optional rule, leaving it up to the GM whether it should be a PC option. The point of allowing metamagic at start is to allow for more specialized magicians, but if the GM thinks the players are abusing the rules to create überpowered characters leaving it as an optional rule makes it easier for him.
Not exactly, aiming is an option whenever you shoot. Limited spells are part of the spell formula, not being an option.
Centering covers "short duration rituals" lasting minutes. Mental rituals? Covered by meditation isn't it? At least I don't think centering has to be physical only.
Yes. But I thought that you could decide how many turns you wanted to use. If you centers for one turn only, you only get 2 dice even if your skill is 8.
Yes, not good in combat any more, but I don't think dancing, meditation, chanting, etc should be an advantage in combat. In current rules it's a metamagic only available to Initiates. Would removing centering in combat seriously hamper magicians in combat? If so having Combat(fast) centering as metamagic may be an option, but not one I like. A metamagic which allows you to center before you enter combat (giving you centering back-up bonuses that you may use later) is an option I like better, but not one I will advocate at this point. |
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Apr 24 2005, 03:55 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Vis-a-vis the existence (or otherwise) of totems/gods, I don't know if it helps but my view on this is summed up here:
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Apr 24 2005, 04:53 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If that isn't Terry Pratchett, it sure sounds like the same viewpoint being espoused.
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Apr 24 2005, 05:04 PM
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#65
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
There is really verily little room to mauver within SR3 spell casting to differentiate magical traditions. All that there has ever been is a totem bonus, the shamanic mask and flavour descriptions of spells (very little room to move).
Is there anything else that could be done to differentiate between different traditions of sorcerers. If you want to be able to create a tradition that isn’t in the book without calling it a flavour of hermetic or a new totem that otherwise works as a shaman you need a new list of spirits. This has been done twice in MITS. Wujen and voodoo. Some guideline on how to balance spirit powers and availability would be useful. Every magician would start with a single tradition with a discreet set of spirits. Access to more types of spirits may or may not be available as a meta magic. If the tradition you want is not listed in any book you can (with your GM) design a set of spirits appropriate to your new tradition. Although this would be good for good players. Be warned, any system to design spirit sets will ether be stiflingly rigged and complicated (defeating its purpose) or open for easy abuse so it must be clearly stated that final arbitration of new spirit groups goes to the GM and the GM should be very careful what he allows. Dose this mesh well with your plans. I really would like to do something to make sorcerers of different groupings more distinct however. Another thing I would like to see is metamagics decoupled from initiation. Metamagics should have a karma cost to learn (not necessarily the same for all metamagics) and a way to learn them must be found (this could involve paying more money, a astral quest if you are initiated or coming to an arrangement with a free spirit). It always struk me as strange that initiation did not teach you a metamagic but no mater how intelligent & ready to learn the student (karma availability) or how skilled and dutiful the instructor no amount of training could teach a first grade initiate a second metamagic. Edward |
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Apr 24 2005, 05:09 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
Some more words on how Initiation may work. With current Initation rules you may do the following: - gain access to the metaplanes and: - raise Magic 1 point and gain a metamagic or - raise Magic 1 point and alter astral signature - shed a geasa If Magic is an attribute like all the others, it should follow the same rules for increasing it. Raising attributes is probably more costly in SR4. It would be a bit weird if raising this attribute should require a ceremony. You don't need a ceremony to raise your Strength. That you should get extra abilities only by raising your magic attribute is absurd. My suggestion: You may always learn metamagics and increase your magic attribute. Metamagics have a base Karma cost. Increasing your magic attribute costs the same as increasing other attributes. 6 is the racial maximum for all races, going above that is much more costly. Going trough an Initation ceremony to do one of the above allows you to use magical groups and ordeals to reduce the Karma cost. To shed a geas you have to do an Initation ceremony. The cost of shedding your geas is the difference between what your ability+skill or attribute would had cost if you bought it at full cost and the reduced cost you bought it at. Ordeals and groups may reduce the cost. Altering your astral signature has a fixed cost (or a cost based on your magic attribute) and requires an Initiation ceremony. Ordeals and Groups may also reduce this cost. You may aquire a geas when Initiatating. Taking a geas counts as an ordeal. As I sidenote, I suppose that magic loss rules will be different in SR4 (with Magic as regular attribute they ought to), limiting the need for geasa for magic loss. |
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Apr 24 2005, 05:17 PM
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#67
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Er... no, Ellery, that's mine :) The conversation is between a vampire (Blue) and a wizard (Random, the narrator) who suspect a dead god is trying to force his way back into the world. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 24 2005, 05:31 PM
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#68
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Guests |
damn, too late.
Sounds like Pratchett or Gaiman, though. This post has been edited by Crimsondude 2.0: Apr 24 2005, 05:34 PM |
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Apr 24 2005, 05:48 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
So it's a bad idea to have any metamagics that don't build upon magic introduced in the main book? That sounds a bit limiting. Does that mean we should put the Sacrificing metamagic in the main book, or do we decide it's based off something else, or? Maybe I misunderstood just how easy it would be to buy metamagics at character creation (and not buy traditional magical abilities). Is there supposed to be a distinction any more? Why not just have everything be a metamagic, and you buy what you want (subject to restrictions about which powers depend on other powers)?
Ah, okay. The heading "limited spells" didn't really tip me off to the idea that what you were getting at is limiting spells by ritual. I suppose that could work. People would take complex ritual for every spell that did not need to be cast under pressure, and would not take it for any spell that did (or they would complain bitterly that that's what they should've done). I guess that could work. I was thinking that using a ritual (i.e. aiming) would be a short-term tactical choice rather than something you decide upon when you learn the spell.
Actually, it covers short duration rituals lasting seconds, not minutes. Unless turns are now minutes long.
Well, it would hamper adepts a fair bit--they have (had) a hard time keeping up with the bonuses you could get with cyber, but by reducing penalties they could excel in difficult conditions. And there, yes, they needed to use it fast. Also, centering was a big part of why initiates seemed powerful and scary in SR3--centering was quite a nice boost to a mage's power. Maybe you don't want the higher mysteries to seem particularly potent.
I think the biggest problem with the kinds of proposals that you are making, though, is that they have a real danger of making magic feel too nebulous. Options and choices are nice, but if you lose the coherent, structured feeling of magical traditions and abilities, then options aren't special any more. Plus, other people will have a harder time pinning down just what magic is. It's a tradeoff. |
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Apr 24 2005, 07:40 PM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Gaiman is among a number of authors who have expressed the same belief system in their fiction. Another term for it is Faith Lends Substance (a pagan belief, and actually one central to the performing of magic). Admittedly Gaiman is one of the best - check out American Gods, it's insanely good. |
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Apr 24 2005, 07:55 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Small Gods by Pratchett is hilarious and well-done also. It's about the rebirth of a dead god, too.
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Apr 24 2005, 08:48 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
Not that I can think of. What could be done is to provide more examples of what the fluff differences are in the books. What do mage or shaman fetishes look like, what kind of gestures are common in the different traditions, what is their approach to spellcasting (commanding vs guiding maybe), etc.
I does as far as I can see. I proposed Mythic spirits as way to introduce new kinds of spirits in the system. Mythic spirits should be mostly like Loa, having a model for how new spirits like them could be. I think the introduction of spirit groups beyond that should be something the rules shouldn't cover. MitS covers to much, p. 24-26 sums up most possible traditions, giving the them straitjacket of the current rules. Removing that part from SR4 books gives future SR writers as well as fans more leeway in designing new traditions. For instance could someone who actually knows something about Arab myths and magic, write up Djinns and Efreets as a spirit group. BTW: Zombies are an omission. They should be a spirit group by themselves (can't justify them being related to Loa in any way). That has some more implications. The BP cost of summoning both Loa and Zombies should be equal to the BP cost of Elementals.
Just proposed such a system didn't I :grinbig:
Doesn't matter if it's in the main book or Street Magic or in any other book. I simply reserve the word Metamagic for advanced versions of other magical abilities. Divination is not an advanced version of anything, so it's a magical ability all by itself. Other magical abilities could be introduced in later books, put Divination is the only one I could think of for now. Sacrificing affects sorcery and conjuring. Though to follow the logic of the rest of my proposal, Blood Spirits should be a spirit group by itself, and Sacrificing a metamagic of sorcery.
the latter is what I propose really. The distinction is only between advanced technique (metamagic) and basic ability.
Limited spells BBB, p. 180. Nothing new really, just two more options.
Point.
It's not that I don't want higher mysteries to be potent, it's just that at I have serious trouble conceiving how centering could be done in less than a second or three. "I dance really fast and powers up my spell"?
I don't think that it would be much of a problem. I still want to keep the established Traditions. I don't want all these options in the new BBB. They're advanced rules like rules for creating your own cyberware would be. BBB could introduce some Traditions, for example: North-Western American shaman (the basic shaman from around Seattle), Wicca, Renewed Hermetics and street variations of these. Street Magic introduces many more (Voudoun, Druids, Tir paths, Wu-jen, etc, etc). Each Tradition is sort of like a package deal and creating an Awakened character shouldn't be that much different from how it is now. The rules I propose are optional. They allow more flexibility within the Traditions, and they allow for creation of new Traditions. It is tweaks of the basic system, but if these tweaks are to make any sense they have to be coherent with the basics. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 24 2005, 08:59 PM
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#73
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Indeed. I pre-ordered it when it first was released. |
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Apr 24 2005, 09:11 PM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482 |
there are three or four ways of doing this
the all or nothing, the "buy the ability" the package deal. wih the all or nothing aproach, youre either mundane, or afull on mage with access to all ofthe metamagics. this pretty much universally sucks. the "buy the ability" aproach is where you start off with zero ability, and have to buy all powers one at a time. want to be able to astrally perceive? gota buy it. want to be able to cast spells? gotta buy that ability too. ritual sorcery? that's annother one. want to summon spirits? gotta pay the karma? Elementals? Classes start on friday. bring karma. (and beer) the advantage of this method is that it allows for infinately variable mages with infinately variable abilities. the problem is however that it's also open to the most amount of twinkage. unless of course someone felt like writing up a list of dependancies... IE yoyu cant summon both spirits and elementals, untill you know how to access the metaplanes, which you cant do without X,Y and Z, all of which require you to be able to astrally project. this unfortunatly is more work that most people would like to put up with. the "package deal" is probably the closest to what we current;y have. you're either a full mage, with a basic set of abilities, or a full mage, who can do a whole lot more. you can still buy additional abilities, (metamagics) but the abilities you get every time you initiate dont ecaaxtly have any limitations. As for the "short ritual" that everyones mentioning, the rule that shootists use for aiming, is that you get -1 to a target number for every action you spend aiming, up to a limit of half your skill. I cant really see why this shouldnt be adopted for spell casting too.... Lets face it, the way that it's described in cannon for a spell being cast, is that the mage in question forms the spell, then fine tunes is so that it matches the targets aura. there are also several references in published SR novels where people have stated that they could have summoned a spirit, or cast a spell more quickly, but didnt want the headache. Lets face it, doing something with no time constraints DOES make it slightly easier. having extra time to align that aura should make the spell more effective, and having extra time to do it, means that the mage in question cant get it more efficient (ie, there are plenty of arguments as to why mages should get the optio to "aim". Centering, as i see it (and if you disagree, please fell free to say. i'll probably ignore you, but hey...) is a form of meditation. Meditation was described to me by a freind, as "focusing the front part of your brain on a simple repetative task, so that the back part of the brain can get the hell on with what ever it needs to". the real problems with meditation are that it takes up ALL of your attention, fully, so that you can block out the "outside world" and cocentrate on whatever you're trying to meditate on. the other problem is that it takes a certain amount of time to do. both of these limitations mean that doing it in the middle of vombat is probably something you dont want to be doing. Sure you concentrated hard on casting that manaball spell.. unfortunatly the combat was over several minutes ago, oh, and you were concentrating so hard, you didnt notice when you got shot in the kidneys. if it were up to me, (and frequently it is) i wont allow centering in combat, unless the form of centering that the character uses is REALLY apropriate to the spell in question .. (the last time i allowed it, the character used hi-ku, and was attempting to cast "mob mind", to get an angry mob to NOT linch the johnson) |
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Apr 25 2005, 02:03 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I interpreted centering as a linking between the patterns of thought necessary to cast a spell or perform some other action, and the planning stages of other sophisticated activities. For example, centering with dance would use pre-motor cortex to tie the plan for dancing into the execution of magical activity. You'd have to be able to dance in order to use this (since otherwise you'd be planning to not dance, which would kind of ruin things), but it's not the full act of dancing but rather the act of planning that provides the benefit.
With a rationalization like this, it's okay for a free action of such activity--i.e. launching the planning routines plus the normal associated gestures or whatnot--to provide some bonus. When you start getting into far-higher-than-starting skill levels (10+), then even this explanation starts wearing rather thin, as it's hard to see that you could put that much sophistication into a plan. Of course, this is a rationalization of the current system. One could decide that the current system was bad for other reasons (e.g. balance), change it, and come up with a rationalization for the new system. ("It is the act of dancing/meditating/etc. itself that helps shape magical energy" or somesuch.) |
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