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> Breath Holding, Do you agree with the average?
Kyuhan
post Apr 20 2005, 11:49 PM
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In M&M and SR Comp it says the average human can hold his breath for 45 seconds. While I agree with this, I don't agree with the extended volume bioware only jumping it up to like 2 mins and 15 secs. The human max is 7 minutes while remaining active (Pearl divers in southern Asia) and one time there was this guru guy at my local YMCA who meditated underwater for 9 minutes (all the local papers made a huge deal of it; small town). So anyone care to share their thoughts on this? Is it underpowered or no?
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 21 2005, 12:36 AM
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Extended volume does nothing to train a person how to hold their breath longer, just increases the air capacity a little. If anything, tripling the duration is excessive for just increasing lung volume a little.

A more thorough change would be needed to provide significantly longer results. If the metahuman body was adjusted to store oxygen in a denser form when it is abundant and then release it into the bloodstream when needed (as works with at least some sea dwelling mammals), I could see the change possibly increase the time up to hours for a healthy individual.
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Smiley
post Apr 21 2005, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE (Kyuhan @ Apr 20 2005, 06:49 PM)
...and one time there was this guru guy at my local YMCA who meditated underwater for 90 minutes (all the local papers made a huge deal of it; small town).

...

What?
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Fortune
post Apr 21 2005, 03:31 AM
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I agree. Proof is needed (and should be available if covered by the press) for that to be believable.
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Edward
post Apr 21 2005, 04:00 AM
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I believe the system is based entirely on body (and a multiplier for enhanced volume) this is the problem with it. There are skills that improve your ability to hold your breath. If you’re interested they involve the way you move under the water and the way you prepare before going under water. An athletics (swimming) test target 5 with no prep target 4 with 30 sec prep target 3 with 1 min prep time with successes adding to body to deuteron your time underwater (in a similar manner to qui and running speeds) would work well.

Edward
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Shadow
post Apr 21 2005, 05:10 AM
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QUOTE (Kyuhan)
...and one time there was this guru guy at my local YMCA who meditated underwater for 90 minutes ...

You might be confused on what he did. The unofficial World record is somewhere around 13 minutes, a claim held by an Italian free diver. I am pretty sure it is impossible for your brain to go without oxygen for more than about 15 minutes, after that you die.

So this guy did not hold his breath for 90 minutes. A quick google search will reveal a handful of websites with amateurs trying to set records. About a minute an a half is the average.
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Smiley
post Apr 21 2005, 06:48 AM
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Not to be a skeptic, but if this was a huge event for your small town, there should be a link to prove the 90 minute underwater yogi, right?
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Critias
post Apr 21 2005, 07:01 AM
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Maybe he was just, like, mostly underwater (but his head remained above the water level), and the small town people just made a big deal about there being a minority pagan weirdo monk feller in town.
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Smiley
post Apr 21 2005, 07:04 AM
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Just wondering is all.
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Edward
post Apr 21 2005, 08:26 AM
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I have seen to many strange things to believe firmly that this did not happen but I would like to see some documentation.

Edward
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JaronK
post Apr 21 2005, 09:15 AM
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If the world record is around 13 minutes, there is simply no way a guy stayed under for 7 times that long, with reporters there, and word never got out. I call flagrant BS.

JaronK
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Edward
post Apr 21 2005, 11:55 AM
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It is amassing what modern scientists are willing to ignore because “it is imposable”

It is even more amassing what “the respectable media” will ignore because they think the modern scientists will say it is imposable.

I am not saying it was done. I don’t know if it could be done.

Would Kyuhan be so kind as to list the name of the small town in question, an approximate time period and if possible the internet address (or just names) of some of the local papers.

Edward
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Cray74
post Apr 21 2005, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (Kyuhan)
In M&M and SR Comp it says the average human can hold his breath for 45 seconds. While I agree with this, I don't agree with the extended volume bioware only jumping it up to like 2 mins and 15 secs. The human max is 7 minutes while remaining active (Pearl divers in southern Asia) and one time there was this guru guy at my local YMCA who meditated underwater for 90 minutes (all the local papers made a huge deal of it; small town). So anyone care to share their thoughts on this? Is it underpowered or no?

I think the current rule on breathholding is fine.

I think what needs to be added is a new rule for a "breath holding" skill. Say each level gives you another 30 seconds, so at level 6 (well-trained professional) you can hold your breath an extra 3 minutes. Extended volume would add 10 seconds per skill point per extended volume level. Howzzat?
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Critias
post Apr 21 2005, 12:10 PM
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That's not how any other skill works, though. It's not like every rating of Pistols gives a +1 power, or ever level of Athletics increases your movement rate. The things that give flat bonuses are Edges, not skills.
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Edward
post Apr 21 2005, 12:12 PM
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I don’t think you need a new skill. It’s a specialisation of athletics.

Edward
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toturi
post Apr 21 2005, 12:15 PM
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15 min with the following assumptions:

5 Flaws each with value of 6
1 Water Sprite Edge worthed 36 (12 minutes)

Ext Vol 3 (+45*3 seconds)

Total: 15 minutes
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Demosthenes
post Apr 21 2005, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
That's not how any other skill works, though. It's not like every rating of Pistols gives a +1 power, or ever level of Athletics increases your movement rate. The things that give flat bonuses are Edges, not skills.

True, but holding your breath is something you can train for - in the sense of both physical conditioning, but also of acquiring the skills to make the most of your body's abilities (free-divers and pearl divers are a good example)
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Critias
post Apr 21 2005, 12:34 PM
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Plenty of Edges are things you can train for, too. I really think introducing a new skill (that doesn't work like other skills) isn't the smooth way to go with this one.
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Cray74
post Apr 21 2005, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
Plenty of Edges are things you can train for, too. I really think introducing a new skill (that doesn't work like other skills) isn't the smooth way to go with this one.

Okay, you broke the proposed home rule. You fix it.

What's your suggestion to smoothly model real world, trained breath holding?
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Demosthenes
post Apr 21 2005, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
It's not like ever level of Athletics increases your movement rate.

But you can roll your Athletics skill to increase the speed at which you move, or to increase the distance you can jump iirc, which is a fair parallell to what Cray proposed, I think.
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JaronK
post Apr 21 2005, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)
It is amassing what modern scientists are willing to ignore because “it is imposable”

It is even more amassing what “the respectable media” will ignore because they think the modern scientists will say it is imposable.

Scientists don't ignore things because they're "impossible" by today's scientific standards... good ones don't, at least. That's how advances in science work, in fact. Some scientist says "hey, this should be impossible, but I'm seeing it happen. Clearly, we need to change our definition of possible." They do, however, ignore things because they're "completely unproved, even when there should be evidence."

And the media absolutely loves to prove people wrong... if someone caught this guy on tape doing this, they'd absolutely love showing it. More likely some guy said "I can do this!" and the reporter said "show me!" and the guy said "no, you're not enough of a believer, I can only do it among believers" or some such bull.

JaronK
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Critias
post Apr 21 2005, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (Demosthenes)
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 21 2005, 12:10 PM)
It's not like ever level of Athletics increases your movement rate.

But you can roll your Athletics skill to increase the speed at which you move, or to increase the distance you can jump iirc, which is a fair parallell to what Cray proposed, I think.

*ding ding ding*

You roll it.

I'm sure even the best breath-holder ninja olympians in the world have bad days and good days. I'm sure the guy with the world record doesn't hold his breath that exact length of time every time he pokes his head under water. I'm sure sometimes even the "trained" breath-holders can hold their breath longer than some other times, I'm sure they occasionally get dunked under in the YMCA pool and have to come up fairly quickly (just like everyone else), I'm sure sometimes everything works just right, the planets are aligned, and they stay under there for just freakin' days without noticing they're supposed to be breathing.

If trained Shadowrun sprinters need to roll it, so do trained Shadowrun breath-holders. Just make it something easy like (canon breath-holding rules) + (15 seconds per success on Athletics/Hold Your Breath test) + (applicable Water Sprite edge, which I'm sure anyone out to be the best in the world has).

I mean, work out the math so that the world champion fella has, say, a 10 skill, the max Edge, and a max Body, and that he'd hit his world title with all successes (to represent that it was very likely a karma-burning once in a lifetime achievement). Figure out what sort of "per success" time is necessary to work that up, and voila. Done.
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Kyuhan
post Apr 21 2005, 04:50 PM
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No no no, not 90 minutes 9, nine, niner etc. Made a typo, fixin it now.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 21 2005, 05:13 PM
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Bah, still not on par with the Threepwood record. And that's 10 minutes before he even starts changing colors he could really go closer to fifteen.
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Cray74
post Apr 21 2005, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
If trained Shadowrun sprinters need to roll it, so do trained Shadowrun breath-holders. Just make it something easy like (canon breath-holding rules) + (15 seconds per success on Athletics/Hold Your Breath test) + (applicable Water Sprite edge, which I'm sure anyone out to be the best in the world has).

Great. And the next time you have a ready answer to a problem, please share it up front rather than just torpedoing the first suggestion and leaving the matter hanging.
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