Are you a SINner?, SIN vs SINless Options

[=-_RaVeN_-=]

This is a good question, and one I'd like to see everyone throw a word er two in about (why they answered yes er no, and maybe some alternatives).

[Fortune]

It totally depends on the character.

[Polaris]

Guys,

Fortune is right. It does depend on the character very strongly. I played one Sam (a Bio-Sam and an experiment on my part) that needed to change his identity as often as his socks (actually more). Obviously, there was no SIN for him....

OTOH, I have found that in most cases and under most circumstances, you are better off with a SIN. That is especially true if you are awakened because if you have a SIN, you have legal rights including the right to purchase Permits and hold down a living (and thus launder money). This is especially true if you take the flaw "Day Job" which I strongly recommend that most runners should take at level one (and no more).

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful, and that doesn't obviate the need for fake identification, but I have found that the disadvantages of being SINless far outweight the advantages....even in the Shadows.

-Polaris

[toturi]

Most of the time a SIN is an asset, therefore I would take the SIN for the convenience if nothing else. I've not gotten SSG, so I wouldn't know how exactly SIN fits into the great scheme of things. But I do think that a SIN would be more useful than a liability.

The times where a SIN is a drawback is those times or players that answer everything with a gun. Biological evidence left behind, photgraphic evidence, etc would lead the cops to you more easily if you had a SIN.

[Sphynx]

Yeah, anytime you have something you can't hide; like plans to permanently sustain some spells on yourself, certain cyberware, cyberdeck, or illegal (without a permit) vehicle. You really should have a SIN. Leave the SIN at home when you go on a run, but don't be caught using something without a SIN. SIN is a must-have.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

Even if you have decided to permanently sustain spells on yourself, a SIN is still an asset. You simply make sure you *always* make sure you clean up after yourself as if your life depended on it....because it does.

Seriously, if you take a combat round or two (you did take Astral Chameleon right?), you can almost always clean up even the dirtiest of Astral Crime scenes. Astral/Magic crime is easier to clean up than almost any other crime. It is the Street-Sam with his SMGs that I feel sorry for....because after one run Lonestar will have a full ballistic fingerprint on those. Not so for magic.

-Polaris

[Crusher Bob]

The main thing I have against having a SIN is that it makes it much simpler to turn a small bit of evidence into a complete portfolio. If you dump your guns after each run, then only your MO matters. You dump all the clothing and vehiles too.

[Crimson Jack]

This question is similar to asking, "is it better to be a hermetic or shamanic character?" The correct answer depends on what kind of character the player wants to make. I said that it's better to have a SIN though as there are plenty of benefits to be had by being a "legal" member of society. Then again, low-level back alley games are fun too. One isn't necessarily better than the other. Both are good in a story-driven game. :)

[Kagetenshi]

[Sphynx]

Polaris,

Not sure why you commented like you did, we both said the same thing pretty much (and of COURSE I took Astral Chameleon). Surely you perused my character sheet. ;)

I'd never be without a SIN. As a matter of Fact, I'd never DREAM of Quickening anything to myself without a Valid SIN.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

On this I think we agree more than we disagree. I was just pointing out that if you are careful, leaving magical fingerprints is less of a problem than the books make out. However, I think we see eye to eye here on the essentials. In general it is better to have a SIN.....in general, that may differ for your campaign or character.

-Polaris

[Frag-o Delux]

I'll agree with the guys who said it depends on the character. Some of my characters have one, the rest don't. My cat burglar does, just because his background story says he does, because he is a chef at a resturant during the day robbing the rich at night. My Hougan doesn't becaus he is completely a street level barren rat, he usually pays the runners in his group a percentage to do things for him that needs a SIN. But after about a dozen runs or so the SINless usually can afford a nice fake SIN.

[Userlimit]

(glances nervously around) Not me chummers, just one more for em to trace me.

[BitBasher]

I don't see HOW you can run with a SIN... having a SIN is a high point flaw in my games. Leave behind a single trace of DNA, a fingerprint, a facial reconstruction of what you look like behind a soft mask and that's it, youre screwed.

Let's not forget you have to pay taxes, get a drivers license and register your vehicles. All your transactions are logged. You have to explain where all your "deniable income" comes from. You are expected to use a legal credstick for all transactions. Don't use that credstick for a few days, a week while in a foreign country and it sets off flags... the list goes on and on and on...

I think its FAR more difficult to be a runner with a SIN than you all think it is...

[Icepick]

[toturi]

[BitBasher]

The underworld sourcebook tells us that Certified cred can be traced too, because the act of putting cash on a certified credstick is a recorded bank transaction, and every transaction that certified credstick makes is also a recorded back transaction. It just takes a little more work. That doesn't solve anything.

[The White Dwarf]

Im sure this is just me, but as much of an advantage having a SIN can be (and trust me, I see the numerous advantages) I cant stand having it because of the "what if its traced" factor. Yea, you can make the chance slim by playing smart, but what if. Besides which, (/streetsam on) not having a SIN hasnt caused any problems I cant shoot my way out of yet....

[Sphynx]

Couple of things. As mentioned in previous threads, just don't go doing things that the Feds, rightfully so, put you on their top 10 list. This may be a game about criminals, but it's also a game about RobinHood style criminals. People that go shooting at security guards, killing the innocents by the hundreds, well, I'll personally help LoneStar hunt them down. Play smart, and you create a much smaller crime scene.

As for paying taxes, having a day job, etc, etc, etc. It's actually harder NOT to do those things than to do them. Why wouldn't you want to have a nice day job to use as an alibi?

More importantly however, what do you do when you DO get stopped randomly by some security force like Lone Star and you have something they consider illegal? Shoot your way out, run'em over with your car, etc, etc? Or just flash your SIN and Permit and be on your way home without being on the evening news as a Cop Killer with the whole damn city's force on your ass?

Sphynx

[Crusher Bob]

That's easy, I show them my fake SIN and fake permit. If the heat ever gets too hot, I just dump te old fake for anew one.

[Sphynx]

Then you are lucky, your Lone Star types don't have Rating 6 Verification systems making a 50/50 chance that your Fake SIN works... In our games, security such as LoneStar have at least Rating 6, making it foolish to even have a Fake.

I admit, in a game where cops are happy to just see a SIN and don't go through a tough verification process, a Fake SIN is FAR better than a real SIN, unfortunately, that's not the case in our games.

Sphynx

[BitBasher]

By canon the credstick readers that are mobile in cop cars are rating 2 or 3... IIRC the highest rating credstick reader that is portable, in a large briefcase is a rating 4. A rating 6 is used by financial institutions and costs over half a million nuyen.

Of course, im remembering all this from Sprawl Sites... and I don't remember if the numbers changed. You have to pass a crtedstick reader no higher that 5 IIRC to get illegal weapon permits in a government building...

Rating 6 in a car?? holy crap!!

[Sphynx]

Never had Sprawl Sites, but the SR3 book says rating 3's are portable. I guess that depends on how you define portable, guess we defined it as hand-held. Meaning a vehicle could easily hold a Rating 6.

But I think you're right, I think we've just mis-interpreted the rule and thus led alot of us to staying 'legal'.

Sphynx

[Black Isis]

Personally, I tend to have characters who at one time had a legal SIN (for example, my Silhouette CORE example character, Svetlana Markova), but usually, they have "fallen off the map" somehow. In Svetlana's case, she is missing and presumed dead after the Chicago crisis, so Eagle Security and everyone else isn't really paying attention to her, plus her jobs don't tend to be super high profile (or even illegal really). In a case where she needs to use a valid SIN, she can use her original one, but of course she keeps a couple of fake ones around of varying utility for most usual stuff. Plus, since her real SIN is still listed as a licensed security provider and ex-military, she has more options open to her for special licenses.

Most of my characters tend to have been ex-military or ex-law enforcement types, so this sort of thing is fairly usual for me, but yeah, if I was making a character specifically who was NOT like that, it would all depend on the rest of their background.

[Abrojus]

How much trouble can a sin-less get if you try to travel by plane?