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> increased reflexes in melee
lumbercis
post Apr 21 2005, 09:09 PM
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It seems to me that if one were making a melee focused adept, that because of the way melee combat allows either of the participants to hit on any exchange, that the increased reflexes power is pretty much useless. I can see how it is usefull for adepts who want to be good ranged fighters as well, but for melee, the adept would be better off taking increased ability or combat sense so they would have a better chance of dominating any exchange. Is my assumption correct or is there some hidden benefit to acting first in a melee exchange?

One other question; could someone explain how the counterstrike power works? The book says it adds dice to "counterattack tests" in melee. Since the main rulebook doesn't mention counterattack tests, I'm assuming that they mean any time the character makes a melee success test when he doesn't have the initiative. In other words, on the character's action, he doesn't get the bonus, but when he rolls an attack test on his opponent's initiative, he does get the bonus. So does this power serve to make the character more powerful on defense than on attack?

Thanks for the help,
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hahnsoo
post Apr 21 2005, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (lumbercis)
Is my assumption correct or is there some hidden benefit to acting first in a melee exchange?

Ties go to the attacker. That's the main advantage, without resorting to house or optional rules.
QUOTE
So does this power serve to make the character more powerful on defense than on attack?
Yup. And it stacks with improved ability, too. On a counterattack, you can have an adept that rolls 18 dice without breaking a sweat.

Melee combat threads have been done to death here at Dumpshock, apparently. You might want to do a search and see what treatments have been done for melee combat.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 21 2005, 09:15 PM
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The attacker wins in case of a tie (sr3.122). Plus, with several actions, you can attack several people in a single CT. But, yeah, you're right, it's far less useful for a melee adept than a ranged combat specialist.

About Counterstrike, you've got it right, gives you extra dice on melee test when you're not the attacker (saying "doesn't have the initiative" is a bit confusing because of the Initiative game mechanic).

QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Yup. And it stacks with improved ability, too. On a counterattack, you can have an adept that rolls 18 dice without breaking a sweat.

Of course, once you're obviously so kick-ass in melee, nobody will ever attack you.
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Edward
post Apr 22 2005, 03:41 AM
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One advantage of high initiative in melee is the ability to pick your opponents better and more opportunities to move and change the friends in melee values.

Edward
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hahnsoo
post Apr 22 2005, 03:52 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Yup. And it stacks with improved ability, too. On a counterattack, you can have an adept that rolls 18 dice without breaking a sweat.

Of course, once you're obviously so kick-ass in melee, nobody will ever attack you.

If the GM doesn't attack you in melee, that's probably metagaming and poor GMing. There should be at least a handful of people stupid enough to think "I'll just whack him with this stun baton", just as there should be people stupid enough to think "I'll just pick on that nerdy-looking guy, the one with all the stars and shit on his coat". Of course, once the first person gets cacked, the rest of the people are probably not going to follow the example (no matter what the movies say).

Unless, of course, you are stating one of the many variations of Murphy's Law, like "When you are early for work, nobody notices; when you are late for work, everybody notices."
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 22 2005, 03:59 AM
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Yeah, by "obviously kick-ass" I meant that there is an in-character reason for the people not to attack you in melee. Either the guy has already beaten one guy into a pulp, or is taking a Kung Fu pose and not looking like an idiot doing it.
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toturi
post Apr 22 2005, 04:25 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Of course, once the first person gets cacked, the rest of the people are probably not going to follow the example (no matter what the movies say).

Unless you do it like Jackie: punch... ow ow... punch... ow ow... fighting is not nice... duck... please don't hit me, sorry about that trip...
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Sandoval Smith
post Apr 22 2005, 04:57 AM
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I had a troll who had several levels of counterstrike, along with a collapsable staff. Using that +2 reach to increase oppenents' TNs made him well nigh unbeatable in melee combat. His concept was that he worked as an up close and personal kind of body guard who at a moments notice would become a wall between his employer and anyone trying to do him harm. He was pretty good at it.
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Critias
post Apr 22 2005, 08:57 AM
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I can't speak for everyone, but it's become something of a reflex action for many of my characters: shoot anyone not immediately going for a gun when the fight starts.

They're either a mage (and we all know who gets killed first), or they're something else that doesn't need a gun to kill you. If the fit hits the shan and someone strikes up a kung fu pose while everyone around him draws firearms, the last thing your average high-Wired sammie is gonna do (or anyone else with half a brain) is take a swing at him.

A melee Adept that specializes to that degree is, nine times out of ten, a one-trick pony that makes for very shallow, predictable, and largely unrealistic gameplay.
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Fortune
post Apr 22 2005, 09:32 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 22 2005, 06:57 PM)
A melee Adept that specializes to that degree is, nine times out of ten, a one-trick pony that makes for very shallow, predictable, and largely unrealistic gameplay.

I never understand that type of thinking. The character above should still have plenty of skill points left at chargen to pick up a decent pistols skill (among other things). Sure he'd really good at melee, but that doesn't mean he has no ability in anything else.
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Critias
post Apr 22 2005, 09:45 AM
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No, it should mean he has plenty of skill points left over. It isn't always the case. For some reason, quite a few people are obsessed with being "the best" at something (melee combat is a fantastically common one, with Adepts) and they focus on it to the exclusion of all else, with the beleif (I guess) being that any points not spent on their specialization are "wasted."

I've seen it too much for me to make a disbeleive check any more. I don't understand why people think they're still making a good character, but...well... *shrugs*
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ES_Riddle
post Apr 22 2005, 09:56 AM
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One significant advantage of increased reflexes for melee adepts hasn't been mentioned yet: Suprise Rounds. If you can get close and use your ridiculously high reaction to catch someone off-guard, you should be able to kill them simply because they have no combat pool to use against you. If you are a typical melee adept with (Melee Skill) 6, up against a similarly statted adept, you should be able to give them at least an M wound by throwing 6 combat pool dice in when you have the advantage of knowing they won't attack back. And once your opponent is taking wound modifiers and you aren't, you've basically won the fight.
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Critias
post Apr 22 2005, 10:02 AM
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Don't forget, in addition to not having combat pool to attack back with, surprised opponents can't "roll any dice to resist or oppose" (IIRC) an attack in a surprise round -- they don't get their basic close-combat dice (unarmed or armed or whatever), either.

You just tally up successes, they make a basic soak roll, and you watch 'em fall. It's an easy KO for anyone (adept or otherwise) who's decent in melee.
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Grinder
post Apr 22 2005, 10:11 AM
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Thank god we don't use surprise that often. My last chars all started out without reaction enhancement...
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nezumi
post Apr 22 2005, 03:54 PM
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Edward's right on. In a one-on-one melee-only fight, initiative doesn't help much. But seriously, how often do you have fights like that? Usually the melee specialist has to deal with people who have an assortment of weapns, and guns are usually the first thing in their hands. High initiative lets them get the jump on those people; close the distance, take them out, discourage them from using ranged attacks (since if someone is in your face, you're more likely to go for the club than the pistol, and even if you DO go for the pistol, you're suffering modifiers).

It's all about tactics.
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Edward
post Apr 22 2005, 04:10 PM
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Melee mage.
Improved invisibility
Stealth
2 sustaining foci
respectable strength
weapon focus
weapon skill appropriate

surprise action!!!

Edward
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Lantzer
post Apr 22 2005, 08:22 PM
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Seen it.

Although the version I saw was a troll who astrally scouted the opposition before crashing around the corner. Did I mention he was flying?
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lumbercis
post Apr 22 2005, 10:27 PM
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I didn't mean to suggest that you would necessarily want to make such a one-dimensional character, and as nezumi pointed out, increased reflexes is useful if you are facing anyone with firearms as you can try to take them out before they shoot you. OTOH, with increased reflexes as expensive as it is, I can think of a lot of other things I might spend those points on.

I noticed as well that the mystic armor power is much more important than I at first thought. I assumed that having a high body was just as important as having mystic armor, but when facing higher-power attacks, a body 14 and no armor will see you dead, or at least wounded, while a body 6 and armor 9 will most likely allow you to stage down the damage to almost nothing. This really holds true for almost any character in the game. If you want to survive for very long, get as much armor as you can stand.
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Fortune
post Apr 22 2005, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
No, it should mean he has plenty of skill points left over.

Which is exactly what I said.
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hahnsoo
post Apr 22 2005, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (Lantzer)
Seen it.

How did you "see" it? He has invisibility. :D Just kidding.
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Critias
post Apr 23 2005, 05:35 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 22 2005, 07:45 PM)
No, it should mean he has plenty of skill points left over.

Which is exactly what I said.

I know. I was just changing the emphasis to the "should" instead of the "plenty of points left over," to show that though it should always still be possible to work out a well rounded character, it doesn't always work out that way (depending on who's making it).
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post Apr 23 2005, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder)
Thank god we don't use surprise that often. My last chars all started out without reaction enhancement...

Are you kidding? I can make an adept who, IIRC the last time I made them, would roll 27-30 dice on a surprise test without any reaction enhancements.

Surprise is definitely your friend. But OTOH as someone asked me after I made this monstrosity is that he would end up either trying to surprise people all the time or get surprised all the time. Although he'd also have enough CP to dodge and soak pretty well while under cover until he picked off everyone else alongside his teammates.
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Fortune
post Apr 23 2005, 06:55 AM
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QUOTE (Critias)
I know. I was just changing the emphasis to the "should" instead of the "plenty of points left over," to show that though it should always still be possible to work out a well rounded character, it doesn't always work out that way (depending on who's making it).

Sure, but the same can pretty much be said about any character type. I was just trying to debunk the ofen heard statement that an Adept, even when specialized) is a one-trick pont, and totally useless outside his specialty.
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